Just another rant about GM.

Chris142 · May 10, 2005

Yesterday a customer brought in a 2001 GMC 1-ton pickup.

8.1L engine (502 cu in)

Thing needs a radiator. it uses one thats totally different from any other engine and is only available from a dealer to the tune of $535 my cost.

Full list is over $600!

So I give the parts clown the VIN# as well as the number on the old rad. They ship one out.

It has special quick connect fittings for the trans and engine oil cooler lines. The new rad won't work with the old lines.

I tried to reuse the old fittings but the new rad and the old fittings have different threads.

So I call the stealer again. "Oh ya, You need to buy the adapter fittings from us too. They are $36 each".

There are 4 of them.

So by the time I get the customers truck fixed with a new radiator, fittings, labor, coolant and sales tax they will be near $1000.00

$1000.00 just to replace a plastic/alum radiator! Assuming that the adapter fittings work and I don't have to buy the newer style lines and install them too.

Gee makes me want to go right out and buy a GM car/ truck!

JHZR2 · May 10, 2005

The connection bit is annoying, but what radiator these days isnt that expensive, as a non-cheapo pep boys part? Radiators are always 3-600 dollars, arent they?

According to radiators.com, the toyota tundra HD 3-row radiator, in OE form costs $299, is a complex fit, and is 1/3 of the dealer price... Ok, so $900 for a toyota radiator? Even if its not that much, say $450... geez, nobody would be complaining if it was a toyota radiator - people would pay the bucks right out. But when its GM, every little thing seems to get scrutinized.

JMH

[ May 10, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

Chris142 · May 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by JHZR2:
Radiators are always 3-600 dollars, arent they?

JMH

Naw. I can sell someone a new plastic/ alum aftermarket rad that is better quality than an oem for less than $300 installed.

My cost on most rads is less than $150.

Some may go to $400 installed if it's a 2-row GM truck with dual coolers or a 98 or newer Taurus.

A Taurus calls for 5.5 hours labor just to install a new rad! The rad is $140 customers price.

JHZR2 · May 10, 2005

gee, I know who to PM if I need a radiator

How are they so much better than OEM quality radiators?

JMH

Chris142 · May 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by JHZR2:

How are they so much better than OEM quality radiators?

JMH

Usually the aftermarket rads have more fins per inch than the OE which removes heat better and I give a 2yr warranty on em.

Stealer usually gives 90 days.

Amkeer · May 10, 2005

Both my Tacoma and 4-Runner radiators are less than $200. Yes I would say its a friggin ripoff for that GM radiator anyway you slice it!

JHZR2 · May 10, 2005

ummm, the waste heat rejection of a tacoma or 4runner engine is sgnificatly less than that of a 8.1L v8. Smaller engine/power output = smaller readiator = lower cost. Lets be optimistic, and guess that all gas engines are ~30% efficient (Ill bet the efficiency at any percentage of max power is MUCH lower in the big block v8 than in the toyota engine - theyre completely different animals). The difference between a 150 kW (200hp) v6 in a toyota 4runner, and a 300 kw (400 hp) big v8 in this truck, is, as a result, 300kw cooling capacity in the toyota vs 600 kw in the chevy!!

Did you get that? 300 kw thermal for the toyota duty vs 600 kw thermal for the GM.

2x duty, scaled up at a .66 factor, gives me a 1.5x sized radiator compared to what your toyota needs. given the large AT cooler capacity, potentially a built in oil cooler, etc, for a more sophisticated drivetrain, and 2x size is easily the difference compared to your toyota radiator. I might venture to guess, and likely would be right - that the 8.1 engine needs many more rows of tubes to meet the design specs for cooling.

It might make a little sense that the price would be more.

Factor in that Ill bet you didnt get an OEM toyota radiator for $200, and this thread is about an OEM radiator for the 8.1 and your point is moot. The fact that it is a dealer ony product makes the situation suck more, as you cant get a discounted radiator. that will likely change in time though... how long has the 8.1 been out? Maybe 2-3 years?

JMH

[ May 11, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

SteelheadGuide · May 10, 2005

The 8.1 (actually 496cid) has been out since 2001. It makes 340hp at about 4K RPMs and 455lb-ft of torque at 3200 RPMs.

The 8.1 is often confused with GMs 502cid crate motor.

Bryanccfshr · May 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by JHZR2:
The fact that it is a dealer ony product makes the situation suck more, as you cant get a discounted radiator. that will likely change in time though... how long has the 8.1 been out? Maybe 2-3 years?

JMH

Yeah, How long has it been out? And of course it's out of warranty

Unless this is a collission repair.. Then of course ouch to the insurer.

Clement · May 10, 2005

The radiator for my '94 merc sable cost me $60. It was OEM and I got it for cost from a friend who works at a chain auto repair garage. Made in Canada.

Chris142 · May 11, 2005

Today I got 2 of the proper adapter fittings. Sposed to get the other 2 tomorrow. Then I can continue putting the truck together.

It's not a colision repair. Truck has 140K on it and the plastic radiator tanks cracked like usual.

So far the customer is understanding.

Bryanccfshr · May 11, 2005

140k in that amount of time means good hard work to me.. I'll give it a pass. Though a radiator should last a little longer than that in my book it sounds like the truck has been a hard working piece of equipment.

Fleet trucks and trucks used as work trucks need to be given more leeway on maintenance expectations. They live hard lives.

Amkeer · May 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by JHZR2:
ummm, the waste heat rejection of a tacoma or 4runner engine is sgnificatly less than that of a 8.1L v8. Smaller engine/power output = smaller readiator = lower cost. Lets be optimistic, and guess that all gas engines are ~30% efficient (Ill bet the efficiency at any percentage of max power is MUCH lower in the big block v8 than in the toyota engine - theyre completely different animals). The difference between a 150 kW (200hp) v6 in a toyota 4runner, and a 300 kw (400 hp) big v8 in this truck, is, as a result, 300kw cooling capacity in the toyota vs 600 kw in the chevy!!

Did you get that? 300 kw thermal for the toyota duty vs 600 kw thermal for the GM.

2x duty, scaled up at a .66 factor, gives me a 1.5x sized radiator compared to what your toyota needs. given the large AT cooler capacity, potentially a built in oil cooler, etc, for a more sophisticated drivetrain, and 2x size is easily the difference compared to your toyota radiator. I might venture to guess, and likely would be right - that the 8.1 engine needs many more rows of tubes to meet the design specs for cooling.

It might make a little sense that the price would be more.

Factor in that Ill bet you didnt get an OEM toyota radiator for $200, and this thread is about an OEM radiator for the 8.1 and your point is moot. The fact that it is a dealer ony product makes the situation suck more, as you cant get a discounted radiator. that will likely change in time though... how long has the 8.1 been out? Maybe 2-3 years?

JMH

Ahhhhh, wrong again son! It takes the same effort and labor to build a slightly smaller radiator. If you include actual material used to make a larger radiator you may have a 10-15% increase in cost per unit. The quotes I gave you are for OEM stuff. Do your research before you spew! Also it cost $1000 for this radiator install after 3+ years of ownership! Highly unlikely that the two times the cost of an oem Toyota radiator is worth it wouldn't you say?

VaderSS · May 11, 2005

There is an aftermarket one. It's a Spectra. Only $570.99.

JHZR2 · May 11, 2005

I did do my research... I got a quote for a tundra V8 HD OEM radiator, from a popular online discount source, and was told $299. So whats your point? I know that not ALL vehicles can get a $100-200 radiator. Maybe in some nice world, this is so, but when you get to larger and larger HD equipment, this isnt the case.

I know that we recently priced a previa radiator, and the dealer price was in excess of $500. At a discount online parts source, the price was still a hair over $200.

Even in your infinite wisdom, you dont know the specifics of design of this particular radiator in question. VaderSS just pointed out that the aftermarket one is $570. Hmmm, thats odd, I thought that all aftermarket radiators are at least half the price of an OE dealer sold one

Maybe there actually is something different in the design of this one that causes it to be more costly.

Your comment about $1000 after 3 years worth of ownership, and the value of the unit as a result is also quite pointless. You do not know the failure mechanism of the radiator, to be able to discern value. Maybe a dumptruck spat up a big rock that hit the radiator and made a leak. Maybe something hit into it and busted a tube, we don't know. If it just straight up failed, then sure, it is terrible, but last time I checked, anyone buying a half decent radiator got more than 3 years out of it. For example, my 83 MB 300d has the original plastic/aluyminum radiator, and it works very efficiently. It gets a citric acid flush every other year, and has never shown any signs of needing replacement.

Dont be so fast to be claiming that others are ignorant and havent done their research, when you yourself dont fully understand the design and specific functionality and mode of failure of the unit in question.

JMH

[ May 12, 2005, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

Amkeer · May 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by JHZR2:

According to radiators.com, the toyota tundra HD 3-row radiator, in OE form costs $299, is a complex fit, and is 1/3 of the dealer price... Ok, so $900 for a toyota radiator? Even if its not that much, say $450... geez, nobody would be complaining if it was a toyota radiator - people would pay the bucks right out. But when its GM, every little thing seems to get scrutinized.

JMH

No its when you start spewing garbage like this you get garbage out! Where did you get $900 for a Toyota radiator? My prices are $150 for a Tacoma and $180 for a 4-Runner. I am sure if you get the stealer price it will be considerably more.

I don't know about you, but if I had to pay more than $500 and the cost of expensive fittings after 3 years I would be highly upset!

brianl703 · May 11, 2005

I thought $250 for a Honda oxygen sensor was a little high...

labman · May 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:
I thought $250 for a Honda oxygen sensor was a little high...

How about $500 for a distributor? What does a main relay cost?

Scooby · May 11, 2005

Sorry to hijack the thread.

JHZR2:

I too get tired of hearing the constant Toyota bashing except for the Holy Grail Previa. Face facts, Toyota consitently makes better vehicles in "their" arena's (cars, small trucks, mini vans). Sure, Toyota isn't a factor in large trucks (YET).

The GM brand is junk status right now. They have the same problems for many years without fixing (plastic intakes). The 8.1 mentioned in this thread is a piston slapping fool.

GM better start fixing some problems fast, or they'll soon be facing the likes of the airlines. All the while Toyota, Honda and even Nissan will surge right past.

brianl703 · May 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by labman:
How about $500 for a distributor? What does a main relay cost?

My mechanic tells me he does lots of distributor replacements on Hondas because the ignition module fails (and apparently is not replaceable separately from the distributor). One would assume the problem is overheating much like Ford's TFI-IV problem, but a TFI-IV module is all of $30-$60 and 10 minutes of labor to change it.

By the way, the TFI-IV module problems are the main reason that after 1996, ALL Ford vehicles went distributorless (the lowly Escort went distributorless in 1991!) Ford got slammed hard by bad press about the TFI-IV problems, and even a class-action lawsuit. I would guess that's why they wasted no time doing away with it.

I saw a schematic for a main relay and there is nothing to it. A couple of diodes, two relay coils, and a resistor..one could cobble a replacement for this out of off-the-shelf parts for about $15...how much does Honda want for one?

Just another rant about GM.

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