Just a Rant on Drum Brakes

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: exranger06
All three of my Fords have rear drum brakes. I can easily lock up the rear tires (until the ABS kicks in), they last a really long time, and the parking brake works WAAYY better than any rear disc setup I've ever used. Drums on the rear are just fine in my book.

Drum brakes lock up FAR to easily, that's part of the problem. Disc brakes are much more linear. Perhaps if your thing of beauty had rear discs you wouldn't NEED ABS. If you understood how drums work you'd know why they are lock up prone.

When I said I can lock them up easily, I meant in a "stand on the brake pedal" panic stop. A stop that would also lock up a disc brake. I didn't mean that they accidentally lock up during normal stops. I was trying to say that drum brakes stop just as effectively as disc brakes. If drum brakes were incapable of locking up the wheels under any circumstances, that would mean they're not adequate. I understand how drum brakes work just fine, thanks.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: SonicMustang
Do you think, just maybe, you don't have a clue about how to install and maintain them?

For your own safety and mine, please leave the mechanical work to professionals. If you're too pig headed to do that, at least you can buy OEM brake parts instead of Chinese stuff from Ghetto Discount Auto Parts.


I'm glad you are insulting my intelligence over a poor design that is not mine.

He insults everyone, not just you.

Just ignore his post and better yet don't feed him.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: exranger06
All three of my Fords have rear drum brakes. I can easily lock up the rear tires (until the ABS kicks in), they last a really long time, and the parking brake works WAAYY better than any rear disc setup I've ever used. Drums on the rear are just fine in my book.

Drum brakes lock up FAR to easily, that's part of the problem. Disc brakes are much more linear. Perhaps if your thing of beauty had rear discs you wouldn't NEED ABS. If you understood how drums work you'd know why they are lock up prone.

When I said I can lock them up easily, I meant in a "stand on the brake pedal" panic stop. A stop that would also lock up a disc brake. I didn't mean that they accidentally lock up during normal stops. I was trying to say that drum brakes stop just as effectively as disc brakes. If drum brakes were incapable of locking up the wheels under any circumstances, that would mean they're not adequate. I understand how drum brakes work just fine, thanks.


When I first got the Cherokee and it was unmodified, I had no problem locking up the rears during hard braking.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

I special ordered a 66 Dodge Dart that had front disc brakes. I believe they were Kelsey-Hayes 4 piston fixed caliper with eleven inch discs. Brakes functioned very well summer of 1966 on Colorado passes. Car itself was a pos.

 

[BurrWinder]

You didn't mention, but I bet this has larger wheels and tires on it now, also. This factored in along with the previous things that others and I have mentioned is that the rears wear down faster than normal with this load. On top of that - the factory adjusters don't work as well as they should ( if they are indeed installed correctly as you mentioned.) means they may indeed need to be manually adjusted to keep them more snug. FYI - just because they don't "lock up" with no ABS - doesn't mean they are not doing their job. Truly just "locking up" with no ABS doesn't do squat other than flat spot tires and possibly slide sideways losing control... like one of the main reasons for ABS to begin with.

P.S. - may want to try cleaning off the anti seize and applying silicone lube on those adjusters and make sure they are going the "right direction" when inspecting the adjuster operation with the lever. Anti seize on those is often too "sticky" and dries out without truly keeping it lubed up and free causing them to not adjust either.

BurrWinder

 

[bradepb]

Quote:
When I first got the Cherokee and it was unmodified, I had no problem locking up the rears during hard braking.

Now were getting somewhere, if you have way oversize tires on it. My old pickup with 40 inch mudders was terrible in the rear brakes, went to oversize W/C and a different proportioning valve which helped but you are still trying to stop way more unsprung weight then the brakes were designed for.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Good advice BurrWinder. Anti seize should be used for the purpose intended. Use brake grease for brake work. Avoid the gloopy Permatex stuff in any color.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: bradepb
Originally Posted By: Miller88


When I first got the Cherokee and it was unmodified, I had no problem locking up the rears during hard braking.


Now were getting somewhere, if you have way oversize tires on it. My old pickup with 40 inch mudders was terrible in the rear brakes, went to oversize W/C and a different proportioning valve which helped but you are still trying to stop way more unsprung weight then the brakes were designed for.


Absolutely! It's equivalent to pulling a pretty heavy load.

But they don't do a thing. With the rear jacked up and someone pushing the brake pedal, or pulling the parking brake, they just spin freely.


Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
You didn't mention, but I bet this has larger wheels and tires on it now, also. This factored in along with the previous things that others and I have mentioned is that the rears wear down faster than normal with this load. On top of that - the factory adjusters don't work as well as they should ( if they are indeed installed correctly as you mentioned.) means they may indeed need to be manually adjusted to keep them more snug. FYI - just because they don't "lock up" with no ABS - doesn't mean they are not doing their job. Truly just "locking up" with no ABS doesn't do squat other than flat spot tires and possibly slide sideways losing control... like one of the main reasons for ABS to begin with.

P.S. - may want to try cleaning off the anti seize and applying silicone lube on those adjusters and make sure they are going the "right direction" when inspecting the adjuster operation with the lever. Anti seize on those is often too "sticky" and dries out without truly keeping it lubed up and free causing them to not adjust either.

BurrWinder


I have some silicone lube that I can use tonight when I take them apart. The arms won't touch the star wheel if the adjusters are in backwards (made that mistake once and caught it pretty quickly).

 

[BurrWinder]

I see some "pros" do this all the time - but it is a bad application of anti seize... It is a big reason why some brakes don't work properly. Anti seize will keep it from "seizing" from rust... but that's about it... it is a really c rap py brake lube... even worse on caliper slides and pad slides on the knuckle area.

BurrWinder

 

[BurrWinder]

But... they can also be "backwards" from side to side... can be left or right handed thread sometimes depending on the design.. Actually observe the adjuster arm action and how it is supposed to contact the star wheel to adjust. It should push it down or pull it up and they should always adjust out to widen the shoes for a tighter fit to the drum. If switched side to side or replaced with the wrong parts they will get "shorter" when adjusting... causing them to loosen in use ( If the dammed things are actually working as they are SUPPOSED TO ! ) LOL !

BurrWinder

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Oh. I wasn't even thinking side to side. But the adjuster arm makes them get longer when it picks "up" against the wheel. So when I'm adjusting through the backing plate, I'm pressing it down. Whatever kit I ordered has them marked "L" and "R".

The sliders and caliper backs get silicone lube.

We'll see what happens tonight when I pull the thing apart.

 

[MinamiKotaro]

Drum brakes suck. I put discs on the front of the Bug years ago, saving up for a kit for the rear.

I'd put rear discs on the Saturd as well, if I could find a kit that would work with my stock steelies. All the kits I find are five lug and for 16" or bigger wheels.

 

[meep]

There are aspects of drums that are superior for vehicles subjected to large loads--- they can exhibit more brake force for a given fluid pressure and volume than discs.

OTOH, they aren't as linear, therefore detracting from pedal feel, don't look as good, and are more prone to misbehave in heavy rain/puddles than discs.

I've had issues with recent replacements not having the same exact curvature as the drum--- and basically had to manually tighten new shoes a couple of times before they set in. Thank you to this forum for that advice.

 

[Dallas69]

I suggest take it to a pro.
If after 2 months they stop working,whatever that means,you are under warranty and the shop will fix.
My .02

 

[SonicMustang]

Originally Posted By: Miller88


I'm glad you are insulting my intelligence over a poor design that is not mine.


Unfortunately, I gave your brain far too much credit. You actually believe the design of your car's drum brake system is dangerous and ineffective.

If this is true, please post at least one news report of an accident caused by the poor design of the drum brakes on your make/model and list all of the NHTSA recalls for the same problem. Certainly a reasonable person would expect to find a long trail of lawsuits and payouts over a poorly designed and ineffective brake system on a mass produced vehicle in sue-happy America.

I can't insult your intelligence when, clearly, your are totally devoid of it.

Do yourself a favor. Pay a dealer to fix it. You'll get a warranty and if things blow up in two months, they'll have to make it right except they won't have to because the dealer actually knows how to do a freakin' brake job.

 

[SonicMustang]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I suggest take it to a pro.
If after 2 months they stop working,whatever that means,you are under warranty and the shop will fix.
My .02


If he does, I won't be able to mock his arrogance.

 

[SonicMustang]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
We'll see what happens tonight when I pull the thing apart.

We won't know a [censored] thing because, according to you, it takes two months for your brakes to stop working after you fix them. Let us know in August!

 

[asand1]

Don't "fix" them, adjust them by hand and see how they work.

Your Jeep brakes were not designed for big tires. Jeeps are light duty and easily overwhelmed with big tires. If you want big tires, you need big axles and big brakes. 9" ford or 14 bolt with discs (for size and weight, not design) would be good.

FWIW, I was taught that most adjusters require setting the parking brake while rolling backwards. Do you do this often?

Drum brakes are self energizing, while discs are not. Disc brakes are actually weaker, this is why power brakes were introduced, to boost the PSI.

 

[Lubener]

I never had issues with my drum brakes. If you are one of many aggressive drivers who decide at the last moment to turn, intimidating tail gating or drive with your foot on the pedal, I would expect problems.It also sounds like your mechanic doesn't understand drum brakes and probably kept looking at the other wheel because he forgot hot to re assemble everything.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Pulled it apart and instead of my usual telling a shop "it doesn't work" or just replacing everything, I took some time to diag. them. Had a friend confirm as well. Was expecting to see an axle seal or something failed and the brake loaded with gear oil.

It comes down to being a poor design. There is a rocker arm that guides the auto adjuster cable. After a few uses, it rotates around and gives the cable too much slack, which makes the adjuster arm miss the star wheel which lets the brakes back off.

The solution, as far as I can tell, is going to be welding the rocker arm to the shoe. Waiting on a new hardware kit (it will reside in the vehicle for the next set of shoes). I think that should make them work.






Originally Posted By: asand1
Don't "fix" them, adjust them by hand and see how they work.

Your Jeep brakes were not designed for big tires. Jeeps are light duty and easily overwhelmed with big tires. If you want big tires, you need big axles and big brakes. 9" ford or 14 bolt with discs (for size and weight, not design) would be good.

FWIW, I was taught that most adjusters require setting the parking brake while rolling backwards. Do you do this often?

Drum brakes are self energizing, while discs are not. Disc brakes are actually weaker, this is why power brakes were introduced, to boost the PSI.


There's a difference to being overwhelmed and not working at all. Now that they are adjusted ... temporarily until I weld the rocker on ... it STOPS. Got it up to 65 on the highway and mashed the brake to the floor. It stopped in a hurry!


Originally Posted By: Lubener
I never had issues with my drum brakes. If you are one of many aggressive drivers who decide at the last moment to turn, intimidating tail gating or drive with your foot on the pedal, I would expect problems.It also sounds like your mechanic doesn't understand drum brakes and probably kept looking at the other wheel because he forgot hot to re assemble everything.


I'm probably the least aggressive driver there is. In fact, I am the one who starts letting off the gas when approaching a stale green light. I can't recall the last time I have ever passed someone on a 2 lane road, either!