I was chatting with my Dad (ShootingStar here on this forum) this morning and am still undecided on the use of M1-105s for track days with my Integra Type R. I was leaning towards Patman's findings on Wix and their claimed flow ratings, but my Dad comes back with his theory on the M1s and possible limited flow and bypass.... "If bypass is limited, a cleaner oil in bypass may be the same as a dirtyier oil in full flow." Meaning that the M1 would filter better than say Wix, SuperTech, whatever.
Is this theory valid?
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Patman
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But the problem with the M1 is that it's constantly going in and out of bypass, and during that time the flow of oil is interuppted.
The only way a 10 micron filter is going to flow extremely well will be if it's made entirely or mostly out of fibreglass. The Mobil 1 is not.
From what I understand the Ultraguard Gold was, same with Harddriver.
The only way a 10 micron filter is going to flow extremely well will be if it's made entirely or mostly out of fibreglass. The Mobil 1 is not.
From what I understand the Ultraguard Gold was, same with Harddriver.
If the M1 truly restricts flow more than the Wix then it may reduce high rpm or cold lubrication but bypass isn't part of this. Flow continues during bypass just as it was before, but with "extra" oil escaping past the filter media.
The high/low micron rating vs. wear assumption is that the higher resistance of the M1 (of equal media surface) will mean additional pressure drop across the filter and therefore a corresponding reduction in lubrication.
One way to escape this could be using a larger M1 filter to compensate. Or, just buying a $1.50 Fram and a good micro to assist the oil change. In the end I'm fairly certain which would make me happier.
David
Patman
Staff member
Thanks for clearing that up David. I must admit that oil filters are very confusing to me, and there is just too much secrecy from the oil filter makers on simple things such as their flow data or even just telling us what the filter is made from.
One of these days I'll figure it all out.
One of these days I'll figure it all out.
It all boils down to marketing.
Me thinks Fram makes its products orange because it catches the eye and looks good.
Maybe car parts companies think of us as Bass in a pond. "Just put out that big fancy lure, they'll buy it!"
Me thinks Fram makes its products orange because it catches the eye and looks good.
Maybe car parts companies think of us as Bass in a pond. "Just put out that big fancy lure, they'll buy it!"
So you're saying I'll have to wear extra cologne next time I wanter down the Fram aisle?
This post shows that a Purolator Pure One actually filters as good as the specs of a Mobil 1 filter. Do Filters Filter?
If this Pure One had been in bypass a significant part of the time the particle count would have been much higher.
So...can't say for sure about the M1, but the Pure One does filter well, and filters well enough of the time to keep the oil clean. That is the oil filter's job, isn't it?...to keep most of the particles out of the oil?...there are lots of other factors that can cause engine wear that are not under the control of the oil filter.
Ken
If this Pure One had been in bypass a significant part of the time the particle count would have been much higher.
So...can't say for sure about the M1, but the Pure One does filter well, and filters well enough of the time to keep the oil clean. That is the oil filter's job, isn't it?...to keep most of the particles out of the oil?...there are lots of other factors that can cause engine wear that are not under the control of the oil filter.
Ken
Forgot to mention, the standard size on the Integras is the M1-104. The M1-105 I was referring to is the larger version that fits many Hondas and Acuras as seen here... http://www.bseries.net/html/garage/oilfilter.php
I have to see proof of the by-pass theory on the Mobil's...besides a test on a Ford Escort (Mobil/Fram)..or what ever it was.Isn't the bypass on the baseplate of the Mobil instead of at the top of the can...wouldn't this have a bearing on by-pass anyways...not traveling across "dirty" media to by-pass?
[ February 14, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
[ February 14, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
Nah, he's saying that fishing lures are made to catch *Fishermen*, not necessarily fish. Frams are made to catch buyers, not necessarily to filter oil well.
To me Bob's test was a little unscientific to say the least.I'm new here and don't want to rock the boat on filters,but of all the filters I've cut open the Mobil was built like a brick shiat house.Since we don't REALLY have a viable flow test to go by I like the way it's put to-gether,shows a little thought was incurred when R&D was getting off the coffee break at Mobil
(Champ Labs).9 times out of ten,if it looks good,feels good.it's good
To even suggest that Fram has a good filter,besides the higher end models,is a travesty to oil filtering IMO.The media is like print paper,valving is a grade school after-thought,can thickness is pop reseptacle material,but I like the atomic orange color...makes a great target for downrange plinking
[ February 15, 2003, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
(Champ Labs).9 times out of ten,if it looks good,feels good.it's good
[ February 15, 2003, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
As Patman reported in a previous post, filter analysis on a test bench is VERY expensive, and unlike oil analysis, not something that we as end-users are inclined to do. The filter makers have to know this and can claim pretty much whatever they want within reason. You can call the "hotlines" numerous times and get conflicting answers to the same questions. If you get a real oil guy on the line you may get some useful info, or you may just get a script reader. It's impossible to tell the facts from the hype when asking the company. My understanding of bypass is that when the pressure difference is too great, the bypass valve opens just enough to get the numbers "back in line", bypassing 5%, 10%, 15% of the oil, or whatever. The bypass valve isn't an on/off switch bypassing either 100% or nothing. In this example, let's assume that the filter is bypassing because of the demands of hard driving and not clogged with junk. Which is better OVER THE LONG HAUL, one filtering to 10 microns and going into bypass briefly but with cleaner oil, or filtering to 20-25 microns, in bypass less often but with more stuff suspended in the oil?
I'm using Mobil 1 M1-105's with Schaeffer's 7000 10w-30 blend on a high reving Honda Vtec motor. This filter is about a 30% oversize from stock.
[ February 15, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: ShootingStar ]
[ February 15, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: ShootingStar ]
How often will an oversized Mobil go into by-pass?Personally I think never if you have a healthy pump and correct viscosity for the outside temperature.The Mobil filter is the same price across the board...bigger or smaller all the same.I "think",because thats what we are all doing with-out valid flow tests,that you can have your cake and eat it too if you oversize on the high micron filters.Could you imagine the repercussions involved if one case goes to court against Exxon that their oil filter destroyed and engine,and the plaintiff won!Lawyers would be all over that like ducks on a june bug
..and I'm sure Champ Labs and Mobil realize this.
Greaser, we're talking small degrees here. Don't worry about the lawsuits so much. Filters would have to fail remarkably and consistently to cause a stampede of trial attorneys. You're right, this is much more likely with low-end filters made with poor burst limits or flimsy cores.
David
David
Patman, Do you have any reason to know that "the problem with the M1 is that it's constantly going in and out of bypass"? We've all been guessing about flow, bypass, etc. but this statement sounds like it's a fact. And my take on bypass is that it's there to make sure that the flow of oil IS NOT interupted.
[ February 16, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: ShootingStar ]
If anybody gets any stats on flow on various filters then we have something to go on.Wouldn't an oversized, high efficientcy oil filter have all the bases covered?
Yeah maybe, but without any REAL testing, we're all just guessing.quote:
Originally posted by Greaser:
Wouldn't an oversized, high efficientcy oil filter have all the bases covered?
[ February 16, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: ShootingStar ]
Patman
Staff member
I guess I should say that we're assuming all of this. Honestly, without a real expensive independant flow test, nobody knows 100% for sure.
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