Is this the "good stuff" - TGMO 0w20

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Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: blackman777
I did a used oil analysis of Toyota 0w-20 and Mobil 1 0w-20 from my Honda hybrid (frequent idle stop). I found no difference in wear numbers, and so it makes me wonder if "toyota oil is better" might be myth.

Really, that's how you judge an oil?

Um..... yes. Shocking I know!..... but if the Toyota oil is not giving me better wear numbers than the Mobil 1 why spend $2 more/quart plus gasoline & time driving to the dealer? Just buy the equally-good M1 and save some cash/time
.

Not as much shocking as it is flawed. A $20 UOA is not an effective tool to determine wear and compare lubricant performance, I'm afraid.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: blackman777
I did a used oil analysis of Toyota 0w-20 and Mobil 1 0w-20 from my Honda hybrid (frequent idle stop). I found no difference in wear numbers, and so it makes me wonder if "toyota oil is better" might be myth.

Really, that's how you judge an oil?

Um..... yes. Shocking I know!..... but if the Toyota oil is not giving me better wear numbers than the Mobil 1 why spend $2 more/quart plus gasoline & time driving to the dealer? Just buy the equally-good M1 and save some cash/time
.

Not as much shocking as it is flawed. A $20 UOA is not an effective tool to determine wear and compare lubricant performance, I'm afraid.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/



I agree with this mindset. I think UOA's are good to a point, but just the fact that TGMO does have a better add pack, and better start up flow characteristics make it a winner over Mobil 1 0w20 in my book. Im not writing it off as the best 0w20 ever but so far I am liking it. Ill check out the UOA once its drained and go from there.
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Greg: Is your Honda "using" any oil...any drop from "F" between OCs?
No, not noticeably anyway. Then again its never been past 3000 miles into an OCI, rarely past 2500, but im trying to break out of that mindset...its hard!
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: 2012AccentSE
What is the going price for this oil? My Toyota dealer has no idea what I'm talking about when I call....
Yeah thats like when I called my Honda dealer they didnt know what Honda Ultimate Synthetic 0w20 was, they said they had a good better and best oil and that the best was like $11 per quart!!! I said no thanks. This TGMO 0w20 cost me $6.00 per quart after tax, not bad if you ask me. And I dumped the PP because I wanted the lightest 0w20 for my extreme short trips this winter. I know you guys hate dumping oil early but it was worth it for me to have the added protection on start up. Im going to try and do a OLM run this time, need you guys to cheer me along lol. If this oil keeps the engine quiet over the full OCI I think I may have found a winner, oh and Im going to do a UOA on it once Im finished with it.


What winter? Thought the PP 0W-20 was also the "winner"?
 
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Do you have links to those uoas from your Honda hybrid?
Here's a quick typed-out version. Mobil 1 0w-20 on the left and Toyota 0W-20 on the right:

1.0 3-cylinder engine (Honda insight) 4000 mile intervals, 134k on engine

BLACKSTONE: We like steady wear trends, and they don't get much steadier than this! We always say that it takes three samples to build a solid trend line, but the first two reports show nearly identical levels of wear after similar oil runs, so you're off to a really good start for this Old Insight. No moisture, dirt, or fuel was detected, so the oil was once again free of harmful contaminants, and there were no signs of air or oil filtration problems (low silicon and insolubles)

M1 ------- TOY
2 ALUMINUM 3
0 CHROMIUM 0
4 IRON 4
2 COPPER 2
0 LEAD 0
0 TIN 0
77 MOLYBDENUM 109
0 NICKEL 1
1 MANGANESE 1
0 SILVER 0
0 TITANIUM 0
0 POTASSIUM 1
94 BORON 18
12 SILICON 5
4 SODIUM 5
1414 CALCIUM 2305
747 MAGNESIUM 125
693 PHOSPHORUS 790
788 ZINC 906
0 BARIUM 0
.
50.5 SUSvisc210F 50.4
7.43 CSTvisc100C 7.40
415 Flashpoint 425
4.5 TBN 4.1
0.8 TAN 2.9

Notice the Mobil 1 was less acidic than the Toyota oil. Perhaps that doesn't mean anything?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Greg: Is your Honda "using" any oil...any drop from "F" between OCs?
No, not noticeably anyway. Then again its never been past 3000 miles into an OCI, rarely past 2500, but im trying to break out of that mindset...its hard!


When I got Kitacamry it had been run with conventional 5w30...to 97.5k miles...and at most, 10k OCIs...

@ 100k (a 3k conventional OCI, like you) I switched to Pennzoil Platinum (PP) syn 5w30...I ran it until it ran down to "0" on the dipstick...after 5.6k miles
....during that OCI Kitacam seemed to burn more oil on the highway (@75-80mph) than in town...just a bit more, but still noticeably...but still, it went 5.6k on 1 quart....

In this 2nd OCI with PP/K+N filter, oil dropped on the dipstick from 1/8" above the letter "F" to the F-line after 1k of mostly local street miles...then I took to the highway for a 3,500 mile trip (1400 each way on the highway running a constant 70-80mph for 8-10 hours each day of the 2-day run) and when I got home the dipstick level is surprisingly STILL more than half-way up from "0"

sooo...in this 2nd PP/syn OCI, Kitacamry has thus far used less than a half-quart after 4.5k miles.... I will again run it to "0" on the dipstick, or 8k miles whichever comes first before I change it again.
 
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I saw no change in fuel economy when I switched from Toyota 0w-20 to Mobil 0w-20 (didn't see any change going to 0w30 either). The fuel economy benefits of T vs. M 0w-20 is highly exaggerated and was not measurable on my hybrid's MPG gauge.
 
The fuel economy gains by the OEM's are nor exaggerated in fact they are quite low. 1-2% is a big deal to the OEMs although almost impossible to measure personally.
Obviously if you live in a colder climate with a lot of short trips the effect of the much lighter oil on start-up in terms of fuel economy will be greater.
 
The difference between Toyota and Mobil 0w-20 is probably very small... like 0.1% improvement which would be 60mpg versus 60.06mpg in my hybrid. Is an extra 0.06 mpg worth paying an extra $2 per quart for Toyota instead of Mobil? No. The gas savings don't cover the spread.
 
Considering that TGMO is a good 25% lighter than M1 even at room temp's which is more than the typical difference between a 5W-20 and 5w30 grade, the fuel economy difference is going to be a whole lot more than the 0.1% that you've guessed at.
 
OK then, what's YOUR guess ?

Even better, something that demonstrates a "whole lot better", in facts and data, and links...

You've already claimed 4% in the past, and even the Honda and SAE papers don't offer that for the 16 grade oils.

API
http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/150917editionfinal.ashx

reckon that there's half a percent between 0W/5w30 and 0W/5W-20, so the chances of being more than small fractions of a percent between oils within the grade.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Considering that TGMO is a good 25% lighter than M1 even at room temp's which is more than the typical difference between a 5W-20 and 5w30 grade,


Given that economy (and wear protection) is dominated by HTHS, not KV, you must be saying that TGMO is operating below the minimum HTHS for the grade to be expecting your "whole lot more" of economy...
 
Hey if you want others to believe the fuel economy savings between grades is 0.1% that doesn't bother me, it's not the reason I try to run lighter oils anyway.
And if you want others to believe that the Japanese OEMs have gone to the trouble of developing the ultra high VI 0W-20 oils and now the new 0W-16 is just for a fractional fuel economy percentage that's fine too.
BTW the original organic moly supplier used in TGMO, Adeka Sakura-Lube, claimed a 1.7% fuel savings for the additive alone.

But the truth of the matter is that you have seen the published fuel economy claims of these new classes of high VI lubricates as you've participated in the threads discussing them.
 
please re-read my post...you are claiming "much more" WITHIN the grade than 0.1% (I'm asking you to quantify it)...I never said 0.1% between grades, and if you want to check, it's the post above yours.

Moly additive can't give any mileage gain except in boundary lube conditions, which you disagree takes place...how can this be ?

You didn't answer about the viscosity/HTHS, and how Toyota cvan be 25% lighter...

As to that, and why the manufacturers are doing it, it's not what I want people to believe...I believe what the manufacturers are saying...what do they have to gain from lying about their intentions for going low vis ?

http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...icants-2010.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Considering that TGMO is a good 25% lighter than M1 even at room temps..... the fuel economy difference is going to be a whole lot more than the 0.1% that you've guessed at.

Baloney
First demonstrate the Toyota 0w-20 is "25% lighter" than Mobil 0w-20. Next do the math to prove running T instead of M will increase my Insight's 60mpg enough digits to cover the 2 dollar/quart surcharge.
C'mon.
Put up or shut up.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Considering that TGMO is a good 25% lighter than M1 even at room temps..... the fuel economy difference is going to be a whole lot more than the 0.1% that you've guessed at.

Baloney
First demonstrate the Toyota 0w-20 is "25% lighter" than Mobil 0w-20. Next do the math to prove running T instead of M will increase my Insight's 60mpg enough digits to cover the 2 dollar/quart surcharge.
C'mon.
Put up or shut up.



M1 AFE 0w20 has a viscosity index in the mid-170s. Toyota's 0w20 is in the 220s (IIRC). There's your 25% difference.
 
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