Is there ANY Truth to OC's Too Often?

[modularv8]

I've posted this before, but here it is again. Changing the oil often does not promote wear. The following is the original study (Ford, ConocoPhillips) where folks have misinterpreted the results,

Valvetrain Friction and Wear Performance with Fresh and Used Low Phosphorous Engine Oils, Arup K. Gangopadhyay (STLE member), R.O. Carter III and Steve Simko, Ford Research and Advanced
Engineering, Dearborn, Mich. and Hong Gao (STLE member), K.K. Bjornen and E.D. Black, ConocoPhillips, Ponca City, Okla.

You can read a generic version here, Valvetrain Friction and Wear Performance with Fresh and Used Low Phosphorous Engine Oils

Synopsis: Used engine oil has carbonaceous elements in it that become a film on high friction areas in engines (ie, valvetrain - flat tappet type). The film provides a barrier, therefore, reduced wear. My guess, is the carbon comes from combustion that under high pressure and temperature (where tappet is in boundary contact), becomes embedded on contact surface and has lubricity properties like graphite, but isn't graphite. If you read the complete paper, you will see that fresh oil does not promote wear.

 

[izzycohen]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: hounddog
Just how is the oil filter connected to a running rough issue? Thats really out there.Oil also.It would have to be something really off for oil to cause a rough run.Put your energy elsewhere hunting for a rough run issue or see a counselor.LOL


You're off base here. There have been many accounts on this site where changing the oil filter made a difference in the way the engine ran.


That defies logic. If the engine is running rough there are numerous other places to look first. I cannot fathom how an oil filter can effect how a vehicle runs.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: pbm
I cut and pasted the following from a Honda forum. The author is one of the more knowledgeable posters. This is his reason why too frequent oil changes are bad (for your cats and sensors at least)




"New oil, no matter who makes it has somewhat volatile additives called SAPS, (sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur) of which the most volatile burn off in the first 500 miles after a change and go through the PCV system and are burned along with any small amounts of oil that are consumed by the engine. These additives are poison to the cat and a/f sensor. Some less expensive oils have more than others.

The reason that GF5 has come out is to reduce these additives among other things. The EPA and car manufacturers have been demanding the reduction of cat poison additives and friction reduction from the oil (fuel economy) quite a bit over the past several years. When the car makers have to warranty cats up to 150k now it gets very expensive if something in the oil could kill them early, barring any major engine issues otherwise.

You might be keeping super clean oil in it at an eventual cost of premature cat and primary a/f sensor failure. There's no way to know whether you'd get, say 180k out of the cat with 5k changes vs 120k at the 2500 change.

I do know, however, when my sister bought ultra-cheap 5w20 for her last Civic Si, and I changed it under protest The car immediately began to use oil at a greater rate. It went through more than 3 quarts in one interval with the cheap stuff (the oil light came on, and she freaked), where just the change previously it used a half qt in 8000 miles (she was always past) I made her buy MC semi 5w20 after that, and the oil consumption dropped and stayed at about 1.5 qt per change. I was forcing her to get to me at least by 6k at that point. About 20k after that it started coding the cat and lost the primary a/f sensor due to contamination. Coincidence or death by junk oil? "



According to the above post the author is addressing damage to the CC and a/f sensor. He doesn't mention doing any damage to an engine. Clean oil is better for an engine than dirty oil, or even slightly dirty oil. Convincing me otherwise is going to be a real hard sell.



DP: You are absolutely correct but if I can get 50K more out of my CC and a/f sensors (not to mention possibly 02 sensors) by doing 5K rather than 3K OCI's, I'm in.
Since coming to BITOG I've slowly went from a 3K OCI guy to a 4.5K OCI guy (6K+ on syn.).
I think my engines will still run 250K (if the rest of the car holds up).

 

[demarpaint]

pbm- There is no point in changing oil at 3000 mile intervals unless there are some really special driving conditions. Even in the days of the 3000 mile OCI I never had a CC go bad, even with the use of MMO in the gas. I ran many vehicles over 150K miles and had contact with people I sold them to after, no CC problems to report.

I think if you change your oil at 3000 miles or 5000 miles with modern there should be no difference in engine life. Either way you should get 250,000 miles if rot, fatigue, or an accident doesn't take it out first. Please note those numbers can be stretched, I'm from L.I. NY and by default I'm locked into a SS maint schedule thinking.

In all these discussions there is a wildcard. The wildcard is we can only report on what we did to maintain our cars and our results. We can only speculate if doing something differently would have mattered or not. In other words if my engine lasted 300,000 miles w/o issue doing 3000 mile OCI's, people can tell me till they are blue in the face that it would have lasted 300,000 miles doing 6,000 mile OCI's. The truth is while it might be true 99% of the time, it is only speculation on their part, since no one will ever know 100%. No one will ever know the internal condition of the engine with 3000 mile OCI vs 6000 mile OCI, how could they? That's the legal end of me, reasonable doubt. LOL


Now if 2 engines were driven under identical conditions on a machine using different OCI, but the same oil and filter combo we'd have better data to go by. But............That wouldn't be real world would it? LOL

I'm bored waiting for this blizzard, try and play along with me.

 

[electrolover]

i have a friend with a dodge pu with 350k on it!!
he bought it with 100k and has run gtx every since with 3k ocis
i replaced the oil pump for him because he said oil pressure was fluctuating. it was pretty clean in there. he has replaced the water pump and fan clutch twice, rearend and transmission but no major engine work. since 200k he has been running gtx 20/50.
the truck is in great shape mechanically!! no smoke consumption or noises. he says hes going to rebuild it soon but i keep pushing him to hold off. we need to know if it will go 400k or more just for the science of it

 

[QuadDriver]

So I am seeing, in effect: change oil, ruin engine; dont change oil, drive forever?

sometimes I wonder if owning cars was not a priveledge we shoulda handed out so readily. Pot smoking woulda been safer.

 

[kcfx4]

wasnt it Al Bundy who said....."everything is original even the oil".......

 

[TFB1]

This thread has made me understand why there are so many infomercials on TV these days, they are just picking up where PT Barnum left off...

On the oil filter, unless it is defective and restricting oil flow to the engine, you'll never hear the difference in a Wix vs, Purolator vs Mobil 1 or anything else... Some Fords will clatter on start up due to some filters having a poor anti-drain back valve, but once the oil pressure is up the sound will be the same...

 

[Oregoonian]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: Malo83
It's just good insurance

http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/3koil.html

Look at when that article was written....2003. Oils have improved greatly since then...IMO...3000 OCI's are a waste of resources, time and $$$.

Read the whole thing. It's a satire of people who call 3k mile OCIs "cheap insurance."

Wow....now 5000 Oci's are the way to go. 5000 is the new 3000!

Even with todays 'conventional' oils (such s Pennzoil conventional, Mobil Clean 5000 etc.) can easily do 6K to 7.5K (with a good moderate priced filter)....and most synthetics (PP, PU, Mobil 1 etc.) should easily surpass that, going up to 10K.

IMO... 5K is still a waste of good oil, time and $$$.
__________________________________________________
2003 Ford Focus (2.3L Duratec)
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w20 / Mobil EP filter / 10K +/- OCI

 

[nitehawk55]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
This thread has made me understand why there are so many infomercials on TV these days, they are just picking up where PT Barnum left off...

On the oil filter, unless it is defective and restricting oil flow to the engine, you'll never hear the difference in a Wix vs, Purolator vs Mobil 1 or anything else... Some Fords will clatter on start up due to some filters having a poor anti-drain back valve, but once the oil pressure is up the sound will be the same...


I'll add that I see way too many people on here putting cause for problems into oil . the OP mentions his car is running rough ??....sorry but oil will not cause your car to run rough , that's just stupid and I'm sorry if I sound harsh about it but honestly some of you members need to get educated a bit about engines and how they work .
Another mentions filling the oil filter with oil ?....totally a wasted proceedure , your engine will get oil in plenty of time before any wear or other ill effects you guys may think will happen .

Seriously , some of you guys fret about oil , filters , sludge , additives and other stuff on here like a bunch with some kind of OCD .

Use a good grade oil , do proper maintanace and drive your vehical , there is way more important things to worry about in life than what you're pouring in your crankcase .

 

[virginoil]

"Use a good grade oil , do proper maintanace and drive your vehical , there is way more important things to worry about in life than what you're pouring in your crankcase ."

Ditto.

However, this is what BITOG is about "Using the correct oil type/grade and procedure so you optimise the OCI and dispell myths from the past so that you can get on with life." Or for some addicted to BITOG.

I hear oil companies like Mobil, Pennzoil, Castrol, Valvoline and others are openning an after hours technical consultation clinic should depressed BITOG members be unable to get help on the forum during usual business hours and require immediate access to treatment.

 

[nitehawk55]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
"Use a good grade oil , do proper maintanace and drive your vehical , there is way more important things to worry about in life than what you're pouring in your crankcase ."

Ditto.

However, this is what BITOG is about "Using the correct oil type/grade and procedure so you optimise the OCI and dispell myths from the past so that you can get on with life." Or for some addicted to BITOG.

I hear oil companies like Mobil, Pennzoil, Castrol, Valvoline and others are openning an after hours technical consultation clinic should depressed BITOG members be unable to get help on the forum during usual business hours and require immediate access to treatment.



Hahahaha !!!......excellent (in my best George Burns voice )

Seriously guys , you really need to lighten up . Follow you vehical owners guide recommendations and live worry free !!!

 

[chubbs1]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
I've posted this before, but here it is again. Changing the oil often does not promote wear. The following is the original study (Ford, ConocoPhillips) where folks have misinterpreted the results,

Valvetrain Friction and Wear Performance with Fresh and Used Low Phosphorous Engine Oils, Arup K. Gangopadhyay (STLE member), R.O. Carter III and Steve Simko, Ford Research and Advanced
Engineering, Dearborn, Mich. and Hong Gao (STLE member), K.K. Bjornen and E.D. Black, ConocoPhillips, Ponca City, Okla.

You can read a generic version here, Valvetrain Friction and Wear Performance with Fresh and Used Low Phosphorous Engine Oils

Synopsis: Used engine oil has carbonaceous elements in it that become a film on high friction areas in engines (ie, valvetrain - flat tappet type). The film provides a barrier, therefore, reduced wear. My guess, is the carbon comes from combustion that under high pressure and temperature (where tappet is in boundary contact), becomes embedded on contact surface and has lubricity properties like graphite, but isn't graphite. If you read the complete paper, you will see that fresh oil does not promote wear.


This study is easy to misinterpret i guess. From reading it very carefully I got these main premises: 1. Phos. does not show an increase in wear unless levels are dropped under .02% wgt. (API SM .08% max) 2. Moly and boron although not mentioned specifically would significantly enhance lubrication as ZDDP levels are mandated to lower levels for pollution and CAT life. 3. (And most important...pg.8 2nd paragraph 1st sentence..."results demonstrated that under mixed lubrication regimes, the friction performance of oil IMPROVES with oil aging."
I don't know what mixed lubrication regimes are but it sounds like the oil gets better as it ages due to carbonaceous deposits creating a barrier and slight increase in viscosity reduced friction in used 5w20 oils tested for 12K. This test was not done in cars but by machines injecting oil between tappets and cams...well read it if you want. I guess I should just keep the stuff in my car now that it has been flushed. I would love to hear any opinions or how I may have missed anything, I sure don't see running many 5w20's 12K.