Is Moly Overrated?

J

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Berkeley
Hi, I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but two very well regarded oils, Delvac 1 and Amsoil, do not contain any Moly. Neither of these oils skimp on additives. Is Moly overrated? If not, why wouldn't Delvac and Amsoil contain Moly? Can Molybdenum Disulfide clash with Zincdithiophosphate? thanks Jae [ April 17, 2003, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: J ]
 

Patman

Staff member
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I still believe moly to be one of the best antiwear additives going. Just look at how many oil companies have added moly to their additive packages lately? Quite a few! Schaeffer Oil has had great success using moly for many years. I believe they started using it back in the 60s or 70s. I still stand by my previous prediction. Amsoil will use moly within a couple of years.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Patman: I still believe moly to be one of the best antiwear additives going.
And as we all know, even Centrum vitamins contain it. I just haven't figured out on what part of my body it reduces wear. [Big Grin]
 
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In my opinion, the sudden appearance of Moly in the OTC oils has to do more with the Zinc cap of the API certification than anything else.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Quattro Pete:
quote:
Originally posted by Patman: I still believe moly to be one of the best antiwear additives going.
And as we all know, even Centrum vitamins contain it. I just haven't figured out on what part of my body it reduces wear. [Big Grin]

Colen; less friction and "startup" wear! [Big Grin]
 
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I was ready to say or even did say Amsoil will go moly too.....but when I continue to see the UOA's...moly is NOT some holy water. I'm sorry it just isn't. Redline has over 500 ppm - and where is this magic protection??? Show me the analysis. I also agree when phosphorus for BS reasons get minimized, the yes Mo will be more necessary. But P doesn't leave the oil so the poisoning cats thing remains BS, too!!!
 

MolaKule

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quote:
Is Moly overrated? If not, why wouldn't Delvac and Amsoil contain Moly? Can Molybdenum Disulfide clash with Zincdithiophosphate?
I don't think MoTDC is overrated. MoTDC is just another FM, Anti-wear additive with anti-oxidant and anti-corrosion properties, as is ZDDP. MoTDC activates where ZDDP leaves off. When used with certain levels of ZDDP, it is actually synergistic. MoTDC can actually reduce NOx and reduce catalytic poisioning of CATS, as per various technical papers in the literature. I agree with Pablo that the CAT posioning theory is way overdone. At levels above 1500 ppm, it can have a mild coating effect on the palladium and other precious metals within the CAT. However, since oil volatility has been reduced, I do not think it is the issue some have portrayed it to be. Amsoil and the Delvac 1 formulation currently use other additive methods and have high levels of Borons and moderate levels of ZDDP in place of MoTDC. Neither Borons, nor ZDDP, nor MoTDC are the Holy Grail, but when used in various combinations, the synergistic effects are far reaching. [ April 17, 2003, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
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First, the moly used in engine oils is molybdenum trialkyldithocarbamate or a related compound, not MoS2. Second, many oil blenders do mix MoTDC and ZDDP in their additive packages. There are several ways to achieve good oil, with additive cost and choosing the quality of the final product among the considerations. Ken
 

Patman

Staff member
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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo: I was ready to say or even did say Amsoil will go moly too.....but when I continue to see the UOA's...moly is NOT some holy water. I'm sorry it just isn't. Redline has over 500 ppm - and where is this magic protection??? Show me the analysis.
How about this UOA, which IMO is the best one on this board thus far: Redline 5w30: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000340 And this one too: Schaeffer 10w30: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000377 Both oils with moly! [Smile]
 
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I think that MoDTC is fairly effective, particularly in the lighter 5w-20/5w-30, API licensed oils that use reduced amounts of ZDDP. However, you can also use boron and various types of esters - that don't show up in an oil analysis - to achieve the same end result. Redline uses 7-8 times as much moly as is used in Mobil 1, but I'd have to say that for shorter change intervals on the order of 5000-7500 miles, the M1 results have been more consistent. I have seen some excellent results with Redline, particularly with their 5w-40 and 10w-30. I have also seen some very average results with what I'd regard as rapid TBN depletion and fairly high wear rates. I certainly don't think moly is some sort of panacea that changes an average oil into an excellent one.... I'd be very surprised if Amsoil starts using moly across the board. Their main concern is oxidative stability and TBN retention over long drain intervals and I don't think using large amounts of moly is necessarily desirable for this. If they do use Moly, I'd expect it to be in their XL-7500 series oils, in particular their 5w-20. TooSlick
 
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Patman those numbers are good - but but Redline is a $7/$8/$9 qt. oil and well I must say that, well, er....it's less than 5000 miles.... do a UOA Amsoil search (search engine was being funny this AM)- there are a number of Amsoil reports with Fe in single digits/low teens with 15K-20K miles. I don't remember exactly, but even look at my 4 lab comparo at 20K miles...Fe was like 12ppm or so. Now I'm NOT saying MoTDC (especially) is a BAD thing - nor am I really saying it's "overrated". Your examples tell me it works in well crafted oils, particularly Bobsoil. I think Redline overdoes it and buyers do pay for the Mo. [Smile] (OK they are paying for the esters too) - Until I see some serious long drain intervals with Redline.... Also speaking of Lubes and Greases there looks to be a good article in the new April issue on Zn/P/Mo, etc...haven't had time to read it yet.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick: I think that MoDTC is fairly effective, particularly in the lighter 5w-20/5w-30, API licensed oils that use reduced amounts of ZDDP. However, you can also use boron and various types of esters - that don't show up in an oil analysis - to achieve the same end result. Redline uses 7-8 times as much moly as is used in Mobil 1, but I'd have to say that for shorter change intervals on the order of 5000-7500 miles, the M1 results have been more consistent. I have seen some excellent results with Redline, particularly with their 5w-40 and 10w-30. I have also seen some very average results with what I'd regard as rapid TBN depletion and fairly high wear rates. I certainly don't think moly is some sort of panacea that changes an average oil into an excellent one.... I'd be very surprised if Amsoil starts using moly across the board. Their main concern is oxidative stability and TBN retention over long drain intervals and I don't think using large amounts of moly is necessarily desirable for this. TooSlick
Ted, your last statement is what I'd agree with, that too much of a good thing is as bad as too little. Moly in itself actually has antioxidant abilities and if properly blended, can assist slowing down tbn usage. Now in redlines case, My opinion is they are wasting the moly as all the UOA's show the excessive amounts of moly left after use. It appears the the FTIR has some problem with this oil, showing higher levels of oxidation and I figure it's due to the overload of moly, thus scewing the oxidation readings. Like any additive, if too much it can cause an imbalance as the additives must be able to share the surface and if one is more dominant than the other, then you have an imbalance of too much on the one and the other additives can't do their job, in the case of redline, I personally see where the overload may be affecting the detergent additives, thus making it harder to keep the acid levels reduced, thus maybe giving higher levels of oxidation readings. You also must keep in mind that Redlines oils are designed for racing in general and not for long term driving, thus, they don't need to keep the oil as resistive to acid build up causing the oxidation increases. So, is moly a bad thing, certainly not, if properly used in a blend. I agree, it is an alternative to the lower levels of zddp but as one has pointed out, that the zddp works at a lower temp for barrier additive levels, but as the temp increases, the moly will start to take over, thus is actually can reduce the wear levels in extreme low pressure, extremem pressure take offs, were zddp will not hold up to those extremes. Obvioulsy this isn't the normal thing an engine will see, but in racing applications, jackrabbit starts at lights, and under extreme loaded conditions in heavy equipment, trucks, bull dozers, and such, moly is a very effective additive in reducing wear and keeping the oxiation levels at a lower level and reducing tbn depletion. M1 SS and Schaeffers both show much lower levels of moly than redline and both of these are well blended with the right amount of moly and I know in schaeffers case, the tbn drop is extremely slower than most oils that start out at 12tbn, proven many times by analysis. That is where you can see that moly is not a problem for tbn retention but an asset.
 
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I agree with Bob that Red Line's focus has always been racing and their oils (even street grades) reflect this. Red Line will say that their oils will go 12,000-18,000 in certain applications, under certain circumstances. But I would never go over 10,000 miles ... the wear just seems too great and the accompanying factors such as TBN depletion, etc ... don't look promising. If I was forced to go 10,000 miles or more on one oil change, I'd probably pick Amsoil. [I dont know] But that's not my style. Damage is usually being done at that point ... acceptable to some, but not to me. So, back to the original question, look at the difference between the moly and non-moly versions of Mobil 1. Or how about new and old versions of Valvoline Max-Life? Is moly overrated? Nope, I don't think so, not at all. --- Bror Jace
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Drstressor: ....The take home message is that once the ZDDP is oxidized, the friction reducing properties of MoTDC are gone. ....
It appears the base oils' resistance to oxidation is a big factor here. Perhaps 600ppm MoTDC works in Redline because they use stable base stocks where if you tried that in a group II it wouldn't. I guess I'd have to read SAE paper 972860 for more info.
 
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Sorry to be off topic, but I did also notice moly in my multi-vitamin supplement (CVS Spectravite) and here's a great site explaining what it's good for: http://www.anyvitamins.com/molybdenum-info.htm as for oils, i think it may be a little over rated, but I'd still want it in my oil. i just think it is important to consider as many variables as your brain can handle when picking an oil, and moly is one of those variables.
 
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quote:
Redline uses 7-8 times as much moly as is used in Mobil 1, but I'd have to say that for shorter change intervals on the order of 5000-7500 miles, the M1 results have been more consistent
Yep. [Wink] [ April 18, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
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Jason, even with slightly elevated wear, that Poncho motor will probably outlast most of the rest of the car. That's why what we do on this site is overkill. [Wink] --- Bror Jace
 
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Well I guess you will be a witness to the destruction of our GTP. I plan to go about 10k on this interval. Then, depending how that looks, up to a full year (probably 15-18k, with filter halfway). With Red Line, of course [Wink] My car, I'm only looking at 8-10k because of more blowby and very hard driving. (no filter change) Sorry Bob I would disagree. I can't prove the other way, but neither can you. We have not seen many analysis. And the majority have been first run AND hard driven. The ones that weren't were exceptional. And it was determined the esters are what caused the erratic FTIR readings. I don't see how moly could do that. You seem to be implying that Red Lines organic chemists with PhDs are throwing whatever in the oil just because it sounds good [Eek!] Do you recall the Toyota Sienna UOA and Terry's Avalon UOA? [Cool] Or the VW with the 5w40?
 
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Ted and Bob bring up good points in regard to the use of high levels of moly in a motor oil. As MolaKule pointed out, ZDDP and MoTDC interact chemically both in the oil and on metal surfaces. Check out http://www.upg-ploiesti.ro/sescom/pdf/s09/s09-l06-jh.pdf. See the section on Friction Modifiers and the associated references. In addition to the ligand exchange process at metal surfaces, ZDDP and MoTDC are in the same redox loop. The take home message is that once the ZDDP is oxidized, the friction reducing properties of MoTDC are gone. What really should concern us is the form the Mo takes once the upsteam oxidation inhibitors (including ZDDP) are gone. Most oxides of Mo are abrasive, which is how MDS got a bad rep. Moly derrivatives are effective only as long as the other components of the oil formulation continue to function. For an oil intended for racing, maybe more is moly is better. However, excess moly could be a libility in oils intended for extended drain intervals.
 
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