Is Liquimoly Overrated?

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Originally Posted by TiGeo
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Pardon the ignorance - but still not getting it. Help me understand. I get Noack - lower is better or less "evaporation" - correct? So over 10 is worse than 9 like the big-name Euro oils (Castrol/M1). Check. Walk me through KV100 and HTHS and why 14/3.5 is a problem?

Walk you through? Hundreds of threads here about it.
But, there are two ways to get high HTHS, which is what REALLY matters. Manufacturer could go cheap base stock, high KV100, or more expensive or expensive base and lower KV100. You really do not want too high of KV100. You can google why HTHS is important, numerous explanations, some more complex some more simplistic. But, all European approvals are not interested in grade (except VW504.00/507.00 which limits oils to 0/5W30 and min. HTHS 3.5) but HTHS of min. 3.5 (let's talk just approvals based on ACEA A3/B3 B4, C3). VW502.00 approval is based on HTHS, not KV100 and with that grade. They want HTHS of 3.5. Will that be 0W30 5W30, 0W40 or 5W40 and even 10W40, is irrelevant to them. So, high KV100, low HTHS indicates not such good base stock, and Noack also confirms that in your LM.
Now, that oil is fine in your vehicle. However, why getting that when I can get for $22 5qt jug of superior oil in Wal Mart? Would I put that oil in my Tiguan or BMW? Sure! Eliminate choices like Mobil1 0W40, Castrol Edge 0W30/40, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Pentosin HP 5W30/40, Motul X-Clean or x-Cess, etc. and yeah, I will put it in.
Does it bother me? No. But, you put it here, which means you expect answer. So, not all answers are going to be what you expect: approval.


Ok, so Group 3 base stock vs. the more Group 4 is really all this is about - got it. No, I don't need anyone's approval for what oil I use, but I do like to understand it and will be doing some reading up on HTHS to get more familiar with it. The idea of oil superiority based on this stuff has no metric, to me, in the real-world i.e. will running XYZ oil cause my car to run to the desired mileage/time or the better question, will running XYZ oil cause my car to NOT run to the desired mileage/time? Changing oil at 5-7.5K, will it really matter if I use M1 0W40 or LM XYZ 5W40 with worse HTHS? Nobody f'ing knows but it's sure a great debate on BITOG!

No you do not. Valvoline 5W40 EV is Group III, Motul is Group III mostly etc.
This is not Group III, IV or V. This is about final product.
Point is not about how your vehicle will drive. You can use whatever oil you want. But, if you are flashing about that oil on forum than be ready for response on that oil.
So, you are paying for oversized Made in Germany sign in front and bottle that looks better than other bottles. That is it. And I am not sure you still get what is HTHS.
 
A new member who just joined, decided to post here and praise LM. What a coincidence.

This is exactly what I said in the other thread about LM and their professionally managed and polished Internet image. AKA astroturfing.

Anyone who knows more than the basics about motor oil, also is aware that LM doesn't make an exceptional product, by German or American standards. In my experience their product @ $12/L was actually substandard to the similar and significantly cheaper VW 507 Mobil offering.

Originally Posted by 400rwkw
I wouldnt worry to much TiGeo I think there is only actually 2 experts left on this forum, the rest are just armchair mechanics/engineers. They can spin and critizize anything they want on here because its just a forum and the mighty $ is no 1.

This forum is great for finding the best current deals on cheap motor oil at walmart. Also, its great to find the cheapest possible oil you can use and feel happy about as a great purchase. Low to high HTHS has more to do with fuel economy than anything else especially around 3.5 where excellent protection is virtually guarenteed. NOACK is the new big trend for what is good oil here even though the difference between all the quality oils is miniscule in actual measurement. Thats just information anyone can google not some secret knowledge only known here by some random who construes its meaning.

No one even knows whats in the oils here, just the additive packs. I would be trusting the LM engineers who produce engine oil for only high end, modified and racing vehicles. I have over 400rwkw in my car and the Molygen is the best oil I have run and i've tried all the majors. LM is super consistent and very dependable as an engine oil. I have tested on roads, dyno's and city driving. But like I said dont believe me, just trust the company you know is super professional.
 
Originally Posted by CleverUserName
A new member who just joined, decided to post here and praise LM. What a coincidence.

This is exactly what I said in the other thread about LM and their professionally managed and polished Internet image. AKA astroturfing.

Anyone who knows more than the basics about motor oil, also is aware that LM doesn't make an exceptional product, by German or American standards. In my experience their product @ $12/L was actually substandard to the similar and significantly cheaper VW 507 Mobil offering.

Originally Posted by 400rwkw
I wouldnt worry to much TiGeo I think there is only actually 2 experts left on this forum, the rest are just armchair mechanics/engineers. They can spin and critizize anything they want on here because its just a forum and the mighty $ is no 1.

This forum is great for finding the best current deals on cheap motor oil at walmart. Also, its great to find the cheapest possible oil you can use and feel happy about as a great purchase. Low to high HTHS has more to do with fuel economy than anything else especially around 3.5 where excellent protection is virtually guarenteed. NOACK is the new big trend for what is good oil here even though the difference between all the quality oils is miniscule in actual measurement. Thats just information anyone can google not some secret knowledge only known here by some random who construes its meaning.

No one even knows whats in the oils here, just the additive packs. I would be trusting the LM engineers who produce engine oil for only high end, modified and racing vehicles. I have over 400rwkw in my car and the Molygen is the best oil I have run and i've tried all the majors. LM is super consistent and very dependable as an engine oil. I have tested on roads, dyno's and city driving. But like I said dont believe me, just trust the company you know is super professional.



Conspiracy theory!
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Pardon the ignorance - but still not getting it. Help me understand. I get Noack - lower is better or less "evaporation" - correct? So over 10 is worse than 9 like the big-name Euro oils (Castrol/M1). Check. Walk me through KV100 and HTHS and why 14/3.5 is a problem?

Walk you through? Hundreds of threads here about it.
But, there are two ways to get high HTHS, which is what REALLY matters. Manufacturer could go cheap base stock, high KV100, or more expensive or expensive base and lower KV100. You really do not want too high of KV100. You can google why HTHS is important, numerous explanations, some more complex some more simplistic. But, all European approvals are not interested in grade (except VW504.00/507.00 which limits oils to 0/5W30 and min. HTHS 3.5) but HTHS of min. 3.5 (let's talk just approvals based on ACEA A3/B3 B4, C3). VW502.00 approval is based on HTHS, not KV100 and with that grade. They want HTHS of 3.5. Will that be 0W30 5W30, 0W40 or 5W40 and even 10W40, is irrelevant to them. So, high KV100, low HTHS indicates not such good base stock, and Noack also confirms that in your LM.
Now, that oil is fine in your vehicle. However, why getting that when I can get for $22 5qt jug of superior oil in Wal Mart? Would I put that oil in my Tiguan or BMW? Sure! Eliminate choices like Mobil1 0W40, Castrol Edge 0W30/40, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Pentosin HP 5W30/40, Motul X-Clean or x-Cess, etc. and yeah, I will put it in.
Does it bother me? No. But, you put it here, which means you expect answer. So, not all answers are going to be what you expect: approval.


Ok, so Group 3 base stock vs. the more Group 4 is really all this is about - got it. No, I don't need anyone's approval for what oil I use, but I do like to understand it and will be doing some reading up on HTHS to get more familiar with it. The idea of oil superiority based on this stuff has no metric, to me, in the real-world i.e. will running XYZ oil cause my car to run to the desired mileage/time or the better question, will running XYZ oil cause my car to NOT run to the desired mileage/time? Changing oil at 5-7.5K, will it really matter if I use M1 0W40 or LM XYZ 5W40 with worse HTHS? Nobody f'ing knows but it's sure a great debate on BITOG!

No you do not. Valvoline 5W40 EV is Group III, Motul is Group III mostly etc.
This is not Group III, IV or V. This is about final product.
Point is not about how your vehicle will drive. You can use whatever oil you want. But, if you are flashing about that oil on forum than be ready for response on that oil.
So, you are paying for oversized Made in Germany sign in front and bottle that looks better than other bottles. That is it. And I am not sure you still get what is HTHS.


Yes, I have read up on HTHS, high temp/high sheer. Appears that higher is better/more engine protection under hard-use conditions. It also appears that the VW502 00 approval requires a min. HTHS of 3.5 which is somewhat high anyway compared to other oils. NOAK data is harder to find (quickly) but here are the data for the common 502 oils. So LM has a HTHS of 3.5 and you get a few ticks up with some of the others which I take from your comments is substantial enough to warranty "LM isn't great"? The part I am not good with yet is the relationship of HTHS to the KV100, do you want as low a KV100 as possible with a HTHS as high as possible and this combo is the holy grail? Penzoil data sheets seem harder to find.

Capture.webp
 
Originally Posted by TiGeo


Yes, I have read up on HTHS, high temp/high sheer. Appears that higher is better/more engine protection under hard-use conditions. It also appears that the VW502 00 approval requires a min. HTHS of 3.5 which is somewhat high anyway compared to other oils. NOAK data is harder to find (quickly) but here are the data for the common 502 oils. So LM has a HTHS of 3.5 and you get a few ticks up with some of the others which I take from your comments is substantial enough to warranty "LM isn't great"? The part I am not good with yet is the relationship of HTHS to the KV100, do you want as low a KV100 as possible with a HTHS as high as possible and this combo is the holy grail? Penzoil data sheets seem harder to find.


ACEA A3,B3,B4,C3. All require a min hths of 3.5 and a Max NOACK of 13%.

Lower NOACK the less evaporative loss which translates into less consumption. Group 3/4/5 have lower NOACK vs 2. As they say there are different ways to skin a cat with regards to the ratio of VI Improvers, base stock blend, pour point depressants. So one could use cheaper base stocks and more VII to meet the requirement vs higher quality base stock and less VII.

https://www.acea.be/news/article/acea-oil-sequences-2016-august-2018-update
 
Last edited:
Quote
s a min. HTHS of 3.5 which is somewhat high anyway compared to other oils. NOAK data is harder to find (quickly) but here are the data for the common 502 oils. So LM has a HTHS of 3.5 and you get a few ticks up with some of the others which I take from your comments is substantial enough to warranty "LM isn't great"? The part I am not good with yet is the relationship of HTHS to the KV100, do you want as low a KV100 as possible with a HTHS as high as possible and this combo is the holy grail? Penzoil data sheets seem harder to find.

That is incorrect table from far behind when Castrol was publishing min. required HTHS on some PDS. Check every PDS for yourself.
Current Castrol Edge is 13.1, 3.7.
Pennzoil Platinum is 12.8cst, not sure HTHS, but probably 3.6 to 3.7 due to GTL base. It is not hard to find, it is on Pennzoil web site.
But that is not whole story. Oils such as 0W40 will have higher Noack if base is not high quality. Both Castrol Edge and Mobil1 0W40 have Noack well below 10% which indicates much better base. Pennzoil Platinum is probably around 7-8% due to GTL (this is just in nuttshel).
11% for 5W40 is really mediocre, similar to Castrol Edge 5W40.
 
Originally Posted by CleverUserName
A new member who just joined, decided to post here and praise LM. What a coincidence.

This is exactly what I said in the other thread about LM and their professionally managed and polished Internet image. AKA astroturfing.

Anyone who knows more than the basics about motor oil, also is aware that LM doesn't make an exceptional product, by German or American standards. In my experience their product @ $12/L was actually substandard to the similar and significantly cheaper VW 507 Mobil offering.

Originally Posted by 400rwkw
I wouldnt worry to much TiGeo I think there is only actually 2 experts left on this forum, the rest are just armchair mechanics/engineers. They can spin and critizize anything they want on here because its just a forum and the mighty $ is no 1.

This forum is great for finding the best current deals on cheap motor oil at walmart. Also, its great to find the cheapest possible oil you can use and feel happy about as a great purchase. Low to high HTHS has more to do with fuel economy than anything else especially around 3.5 where excellent protection is virtually guarenteed. NOACK is the new big trend for what is good oil here even though the difference between all the quality oils is miniscule in actual measurement. Thats just information anyone can google not some secret knowledge only known here by some random who construes its meaning.

No one even knows whats in the oils here, just the additive packs. I would be trusting the LM engineers who produce engine oil for only high end, modified and racing vehicles. I have over 400rwkw in my car and the Molygen is the best oil I have run and i've tried all the majors. LM is super consistent and very dependable as an engine oil. I have tested on roads, dyno's and city driving. But like I said dont believe me, just trust the company you know is super professional.


Liqui Moly was first to jump on Group III snake oil sale in the end of 1990's. Back then it was: HC Power and things like that. Now, it is Moly etc.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
s a min. HTHS of 3.5 which is somewhat high anyway compared to other oils. NOAK data is harder to find (quickly) but here are the data for the common 502 oils. So LM has a HTHS of 3.5 and you get a few ticks up with some of the others which I take from your comments is substantial enough to warranty "LM isn't great"? The part I am not good with yet is the relationship of HTHS to the KV100, do you want as low a KV100 as possible with a HTHS as high as possible and this combo is the holy grail? Penzoil data sheets seem harder to find.

That is incorrect table from far behind when Castrol was publishing min. required HTHS on some PDS. Check every PDS for yourself.
Current Castrol Edge is 13.1, 3.7.
Pennzoil Platinum is 12.8cst, not sure HTHS, but probably 3.6 to 3.7 due to GTL base. It is not hard to find, it is on Pennzoil web site.
But that is not whole story. Oils such as 0W40 will have higher Noack if base is not high quality. Both Castrol Edge and Mobil1 0W40 have Noack well below 10% which indicates much better base. Pennzoil Platinum is probably around 7-8% due to GTL (this is just in nuttshel).
11% for 5W40 is really mediocre, similar to Castrol Edge 5W40.

I literally made this this morning from the PDS I found on each of their websites. I could not find the Penzoil sheet from their site for whatever reason.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CleverUserName
A new member who just joined, decided to post here and praise LM. What a coincidence.

This is exactly what I said in the other thread about LM and their professionally managed and polished Internet image. AKA astroturfing.

Anyone who knows more than the basics about motor oil, also is aware that LM doesn't make an exceptional product, by German or American standards. In my experience their product @ $12/L was actually substandard to the similar and significantly cheaper VW 507 Mobil offering.

Originally Posted by 400rwkw
I wouldnt worry to much TiGeo I think there is only actually 2 experts left on this forum, the rest are just armchair mechanics/engineers. They can spin and critizize anything they want on here because its just a forum and the mighty $ is no 1.

This forum is great for finding the best current deals on cheap motor oil at walmart. Also, its great to find the cheapest possible oil you can use and feel happy about as a great purchase. Low to high HTHS has more to do with fuel economy than anything else especially around 3.5 where excellent protection is virtually guarenteed. NOACK is the new big trend for what is good oil here even though the difference between all the quality oils is miniscule in actual measurement. Thats just information anyone can google not some secret knowledge only known here by some random who construes its meaning.

No one even knows whats in the oils here, just the additive packs. I would be trusting the LM engineers who produce engine oil for only high end, modified and racing vehicles. I have over 400rwkw in my car and the Molygen is the best oil I have run and i've tried all the majors. LM is super consistent and very dependable as an engine oil. I have tested on roads, dyno's and city driving. But like I said dont believe me, just trust the company you know is super professional.


Liqui Moly was first to jump on Group III snake oil sale in the end of 1990's. Back then it was: HC Power and things like that. Now, it is Moly etc.


What exactly does "Group III snake oil sale" mean?
 
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Conspiracy theory!

Nah, it's probably a very simple explanation and one we've seen before.

Being able to see IP addresses would be helpful.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Conspiracy theory!

Nah, it's probably a very simple explanation and one we've seen before.

Being able to see IP addresses would be helpful.


I've seen it with vendors on other forums/FB pages. No clue here.
 
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
s a min. HTHS of 3.5 which is somewhat high anyway compared to other oils. NOAK data is harder to find (quickly) but here are the data for the common 502 oils. So LM has a HTHS of 3.5 and you get a few ticks up with some of the others which I take from your comments is substantial enough to warranty "LM isn't great"? The part I am not good with yet is the relationship of HTHS to the KV100, do you want as low a KV100 as possible with a HTHS as high as possible and this combo is the holy grail? Penzoil data sheets seem harder to find.

That is incorrect table from far behind when Castrol was publishing min. required HTHS on some PDS. Check every PDS for yourself.
Current Castrol Edge is 13.1, 3.7.
Pennzoil Platinum is 12.8cst, not sure HTHS, but probably 3.6 to 3.7 due to GTL base. It is not hard to find, it is on Pennzoil web site.
But that is not whole story. Oils such as 0W40 will have higher Noack if base is not high quality. Both Castrol Edge and Mobil1 0W40 have Noack well below 10% which indicates much better base. Pennzoil Platinum is probably around 7-8% due to GTL (this is just in nuttshel).
11% for 5W40 is really mediocre, similar to Castrol Edge 5W40.

I literally made this this morning from the PDS I found on each of their websites. I could not find the Penzoil sheet from their site for whatever reason.

Here you go.
They changed product since last PDS which was 12/2019. Now it is API SP.
https://www.shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en-US/53f3f71c-3b48-4343-8221-04ca6b02d1a3.pdf
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CleverUserName
A new member who just joined, decided to post here and praise LM. What a coincidence.

This is exactly what I said in the other thread about LM and their professionally managed and polished Internet image. AKA astroturfing.

Anyone who knows more than the basics about motor oil, also is aware that LM doesn't make an exceptional product, by German or American standards. In my experience their product @ $12/L was actually substandard to the similar and significantly cheaper VW 507 Mobil offering.

Originally Posted by 400rwkw
I wouldnt worry to much TiGeo I think there is only actually 2 experts left on this forum, the rest are just armchair mechanics/engineers. They can spin and critizize anything they want on here because its just a forum and the mighty $ is no 1.

This forum is great for finding the best current deals on cheap motor oil at walmart. Also, its great to find the cheapest possible oil you can use and feel happy about as a great purchase. Low to high HTHS has more to do with fuel economy than anything else especially around 3.5 where excellent protection is virtually guarenteed. NOACK is the new big trend for what is good oil here even though the difference between all the quality oils is miniscule in actual measurement. Thats just information anyone can google not some secret knowledge only known here by some random who construes its meaning.

No one even knows whats in the oils here, just the additive packs. I would be trusting the LM engineers who produce engine oil for only high end, modified and racing vehicles. I have over 400rwkw in my car and the Molygen is the best oil I have run and i've tried all the majors. LM is super consistent and very dependable as an engine oil. I have tested on roads, dyno's and city driving. But like I said dont believe me, just trust the company you know is super professional.


Liqui Moly was first to jump on Group III snake oil sale in the end of 1990's. Back then it was: HC Power and things like that. Now, it is Moly etc.


What exactly does "Group III snake oil sale" mean?

In the end of 1990's? Selling far, far inferior product as something special. At that time no 0W40, 5W40, 0W30 Euro oil was able to be made with Group III base stocks and get approved for approvals at that time.
LM kept same marketing, but HC is now nothing special, so they are selling you MOLYWHATEVER.
 
Ah, the whole "this isn't really synthetic" but says "synthetic" thing - so they use Group 3 HC and it says "fully synthetic" - I thought this was the standard marketing across many brands.
 
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Ah, the whole "this isn't really synthetic" but says "synthetic" thing - so they use Group 3 HC and it says "fully synthetic" - I thought this was the standard marketing across many brands.


It is now, and the differences small. But back then, the Grp3 syns were arguably much worse when compared to a PAO.
 
It is but Liqui Moly are one of the only companies that doesnt use it to their advantage as many claim. All of Liqui Moly "SYNTHOIL" oils are in fact full Synthetic (PAO). They have always been clear that most of their oils are HC and they use names like synthetic technology etc not 'full synthetic' or 'true synthetic' as most other companies do. Its about the end product and its specs and approvals, as most say here, then argue over tiny variations in additive packs and specifications etc etc. I do not work for Liqui Moly lol. Enjoy that car TiGeo with the green oil its good stuff.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, but from a motorcycle oil perspective, I have noticed that saying you meet a spec, and actually having the testing approved MAY be two different things.

While Liqui-Moly may have had some issue many years ago concerning their base stock, I don't know this for sure, but I have no reason to doubt edyvw's claim, I will say that they when it comes to motorcycle ratings, they do have the proper ratings on file.

JASO MA ratings for motorcycle are published here. http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

While you do see Liqui-Moly listed, you don't see many other oils listed that claim the spec. No Mobil 1 and interestingly, no BMW Advatec, BMW's own motorcycle oil. Both claim to meet the spec, and actually might, but they haven't certified that when looking at the listed oils.

I get it, it cost money to actually get the certification, but it does show Liqui-Moly took the initiative to pay for and get the certification. It doesn't appear that Mobil or BMW Advantec (Shell Oil) have the certification from a strictly by the book way of viewing it.

Does that mean Mobil and She'll are bad oils? No. Does it mean they are being deceptive as Liqui-Moly has been labeled as in their claims years back? I guess that just depends on your perspective.

Again, for a motorcycle oil, MA is a spec that most every manufacturer specifies. Many people believe it is a spec that needs to be met to satisfy the manufacturer's warranty requirements, while others believe it to be ignored. That's a whole other discussion. I will say that oils that pass the spec and go through the registering process, almost always put the MA square logo, with the registered number prominently on their bottle.

I use Motul 7100 in my BMW, but I know a lot of owners use Liqui-Moly with good results as well.
 
0
Originally Posted by 400rwkw
It is but Liqui Moly are one of the only companies that doesnt use it to their advantage as many claim. All of Liqui Moly "SYNTHOIL" oils are in fact full Synthetic (PAO). They have always been clear that most of their oils are HC and they use names like synthetic technology etc not 'full synthetic' or 'true synthetic' as most other companies do. Its about the end product and its specs and approvals, as most say here, then argue over tiny variations in additive packs and specifications etc etc. I do not work for Liqui Moly lol. Enjoy that car TiGeo with the green oil its good stuff.


The semantics of the titling w/r to Group 3/4 is silly to me. Some I'm sure want the bottle to say "Group 4 PAO" or "Group 3 HC" to be more transparent. If the oil has the OEM approval it meets the required specs and is good to go. If Group 3 or 4 mattered so much, the OEM would work that in to the approval.
 
Originally Posted by Spooled


Does that mean Mobil and She'll are bad oils? No. Does it mean they are being deceptive as Liqui-Moly has been labeled as in their claims years back? I guess that just depends on your perspective.


Mobil Super 4T appears on that list multiple times under different vendors, which is interesting. Mobil 1 V-Twin doesn't claim to carry JASO MA:
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants...products/products/mobil-1-v-twin-20w-50/
 
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