is .357 mag the best defense round?

[CrawfishTails]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Back to the original question, yes it is, if you hit the aggressor in the right spot.


That means to me that a pistol shotgun, like the 410 Taurus Judge revolver, is best. You don't have to be accurate, and you want short range power.

410 caliber shotgun shells, especially out of a handgun, are definitely insufficient for personal defense. You only get 3 balls if you use buckshot, and birdshot, as always, is ineffective against humans.

This test result shows that if you have a Taurus Judge, you should use .45LC for personal defense, not shot shells.


Good point about the kind of shot used. I guess one needs sharper metal shrapnel (i.e., small blades) mixed in with one or two balls inside the 410 shell. Lethal cutting, and M*V effect too.

 

[Robenstein]

The 410 is a poor choice no matter what kind you use. Even with OOO buck there is just not enough room in the 410 for effective powder/shot combo. You really are better with a good hot 45LC than any 410 IMHO. The Judge type revolvers are good with 410 for snakes and other pests. Good back pack gun, especially the new types I am seeing that chamber 454 Casull also.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Back to the original question, yes it is, if you hit the aggressor in the right spot.


That means to me that a pistol shotgun, like the 410 Taurus Judge revolver, is best. You don't have to be accurate, and you want short range power.

You still have to be accurate, even with a 12 gauge.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The 410 is a poor choice no matter what kind you use. Even with OOO buck there is just not enough room in the 410 for effective powder/shot combo. You really are better with a good hot 45LC than any 410 IMHO. The Judge type revolvers are good with 410 for snakes and other pests. Good back pack gun, especially the new types I am seeing that chamber 454 Casull also.


I agree. Those .410 shotgun handgun revolver things are pointless for self defense when loaded with shotgun shells.

Full size .410 shotguns actually are pretty effective self defense guns when loaded with slugs or buckshot. They have over 800 ft pounds of energy.

 

[CrawfishTails]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Full size .410 shotguns actually are pretty effective self defense guns when loaded with slugs or buckshot. They have over 800 ft pounds of energy.


Wouldn't the .410 shotgun shells be the same ones used in both a pistol & full-size? Same energy I mean. Maybe you're referring to the spreading-out effect of short barrel vs. long barrel(?)

 

[CrawfishTails]

I've read that a .410 shotgun shell has about the same energy as a .41 Remington Magnum does. (1050 joules for both). As long as that energy doesn't get too spread out when striking something, the .410 shotgun shell has sufficient stopping power. Maybe use only 1 or two slugs in there with a little bit of cutting shrapnel, and the spreading over short range would be just right to make sure there is a least some hit.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Full size .410 shotguns actually are pretty effective self defense guns when loaded with slugs or buckshot. They have over 800 ft pounds of energy.


Wouldn't the .410 shotgun shells be the same ones used in both a pistol & full-size? Same energy I mean. Maybe you're referring to the spreading-out effect of short barrel vs. long barrel(?)


Barrel length makes a HUGE difference in the kinetic energy of many rounds. For instance you will get much more energy if you fire the same 357 magnum load from a revolver with a 6 inch barrel versus a 2 inch barrel. Well the 410 rounds specs you see posted, are fired from actual shotguns with barrels of atleast 18 inches. For instance when I looked up 410 slugs for hunting they had about 781 ft lbs of energy in a shotgun, which is in the same field as a 41 magnum fired out of a 4 to 6 inch barreled handgun. Fired out of a 2 inch snubbie Judge, you are going to get SUBSTANTIALLY less "oomph" from the 410.

 

[CrawfishTails]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Full size .410 shotguns actually are pretty effective self defense guns when loaded with slugs or buckshot. They have over 800 ft pounds of energy.


Wouldn't the .410 shotgun shells be the same ones used in both a pistol & full-size? Same energy I mean. Maybe you're referring to the spreading-out effect of short barrel vs. long barrel(?)


Barrel length makes a HUGE difference in the kinetic energy of many rounds. For instance you will get much more energy if you fire the same 357 magnum load from a revolver with a 6 inch barrel versus a 2 inch barrel. Well the 410 rounds specs you see posted, are fired from actual shotguns with barrels of atleast 18 inches. For instance when I looked up 410 slugs for hunting they had about 781 ft lbs of energy in a shotgun, which is in the same field as a 41 magnum fired out of a 4 to 6 inch barreled handgun. Fired out of a 2 inch snubbie Judge, you are going to get SUBSTANTIALLY less "oomph" from the 410.


You just re-wrote the laws of physics. Are you saying a longer barrel is more efficient at extracting the energy from the powder?
Energy comes from the exploding powder inside the shell, not barrel length.
You might be referring to the concentration of energy exchange as it strikes the target, a smaller barrel having a wider and less concentrated blast pattern.

 

[CT8]

Smokeless powder burns it doesn't explode. The longer barrel allows more powder burn before the projectile leaves the barrel hence more feet per second. Yes there is a diminishing of FPS with an over long barrel. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

 

[CT8]

The muzzle energy seems to be a B.S. number.Figures lie and liars figure. Every action has a equal and opposite reaction ??? A bullet with 800 lb ft of energy should kncsk the shooter on his behind if the numbers were so.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails

You just re-wrote the laws of physics. Are you saying a longer barrel is more efficient at extracting the energy from the powder?
Energy comes from the exploding powder inside the shell, not barrel length.

The powder burn is not instantaneous. Short barrels don't allow all of the powder to burn before the projectile exits the barrel. See the references to excessive muzzle flash in short barreled .357 Magnums in this thread. The muzzle flash is powder burning outside of the barrel, which does nothing for velocity.

A buckshot load fired out of a proper shotgun has a velocity of 1200-1300 fps. Fired out of a 3" barrel it is 800-850 fps, a 30% or more loss in velocity.

A couple of good articles on the use of .410 in revolvers:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-53-the-taurus-judge-revisited/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/taurus_judge_3inch.htm

Ed

 

[edhackett]

Too late to edit.

A 30% loss in velocity equals a 50% loss of energy.

Muzzle energy of a 000 buck at 1200 fps is 233 ft/lb.
Muzzle energy of a 000 buck at 850 fps is 117 ft/lb.

000 buck: 73 grains, ballistic coefficient 0.05.

Ed

 

[Robenstein]

Powders progressively burn and the longer the barrel(as long as the powder is still burning) the more it builds gas pressure which accelerates the bullet to higher velocities. That creates more kinetic energy. That is simple physics. Mass x velocity = force. You can easily see it if you compare the stated numbers for the 5.56 NATO round in 20 inch barreled M16's vs the 16 inch M4 as a great example of how just chopping a barrel down can effect performance.

 

[CT8]

more on Fps VS. barrel length http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

 

[totegoat]

I own a six shot 357. I keep a 10 shot .40 cal handy. I would rather not be shot by any caliber or gauge.

A teenage friend died from a load of 12 ga 7 1/2 shot 50 years ago. Just a stupid accident, but don't say bird shot isn't lethal.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: CT8
The muzzle energy seems to be a B.S. number.Figures lie and liars figure. Every action has a equal and opposite reaction ??? A bullet with 800 lb ft of energy should kncsk the shooter on his behind if the numbers were so.


Maybe it would if shot at 1 inch away, and all the energy was instantly dumped into the target.

The muzzle energy is a simple calculation based on bullet mass and velocity.

 

[Mystic]

Yes, the muzzle energy is just a simple calculation. The bullet is travelling at high velocity so even though the bullet is a small mass tremendous force can be developed.

Think of it this way: If a spacecraft was travelling at the speed of light a tiny speck of dust could destroy the spacecraft, unless there was some sort of protection for the spacecraft. The tiny speck of dust has very little mass, but the tremendous velocity combined with the tiny mass of the speck of dust would create tremendous force.

Or, if I took a 230 grain .45 bullet and just threw it at somebody, it might hurt a little bit but it would not kill them. I=But a 230 grain .45 bullet fired from a 1911 .45 has much more energy on impact.

A lighter .357 magnum round, like a 125 grain hollowpoint, is travelling faster than the 230 grain .45 bullet and produces greater energy, even though the bullet is lighter.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Powders progressively burn and the longer the barrel(as long as the powder is still burning) the more it builds gas pressure which accelerates the bullet to higher velocities. That creates more kinetic energy. That is simple physics. Mass x velocity = force. You can easily see it if you compare the stated numbers for the 5.56 NATO round in 20 inch barreled M16's vs the 16 inch M4 as a great example of how just chopping a barrel down can effect performance.


Cool stuff! There comes a point where the barrel isn't long enough for efficient powder burn. A way to check is to fire a bullet through a sheet hanging a few feet away from the barrel. If some powder splatters on the sheet the barrel is too short.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: CrawfishTails
Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Full size .410 shotguns actually are pretty effective self defense guns when loaded with slugs or buckshot. They have over 800 ft pounds of energy.


Wouldn't the .410 shotgun shells be the same ones used in both a pistol & full-size? Same energy I mean. Maybe you're referring to the spreading-out effect of short barrel vs. long barrel(?)


Barrel length makes a HUGE difference in the kinetic energy of many rounds. For instance you will get much more energy if you fire the same 357 magnum load from a revolver with a 6 inch barrel versus a 2 inch barrel. Well the 410 rounds specs you see posted, are fired from actual shotguns with barrels of atleast 18 inches. For instance when I looked up 410 slugs for hunting they had about 781 ft lbs of energy in a shotgun, which is in the same field as a 41 magnum fired out of a 4 to 6 inch barreled handgun. Fired out of a 2 inch snubbie Judge, you are going to get SUBSTANTIALLY less "oomph" from the 410.


You just re-wrote the laws of physics. Are you saying a longer barrel is more efficient at extracting the energy from the powder?
Energy comes from the exploding powder inside the shell, not barrel length.
You might be referring to the concentration of energy exchange as it strikes the target, a smaller barrel having a wider and less concentrated blast pattern.


In fact, it IS physics. This is exactly what physics would predict. Of course the longer barrel is more efficient at extracting energy from the powder.

The projectile is acted upon by expanding gas. V=1/2AT(2). So, the longer the gas (force) acts upon the body, the higher the velocity. Once the projectile leaves the barrel, any barrel, then it's acted upon by air friction and begins slowing down. Now, once combustion is complete, then the gas pressure is decreasing as the volume it is increasing, but this is a simple approximation

So, out of a snubbie revolver, that .410 shot doesn't accelerate for very long at all. Its velocity is far slower than it would be out of a,full length barrel. It's designed for a full length shotgun.

Some rounds are designed to get complete combustion in a short barrel, so, while the force doesn't have long to act, it at least reaches its maximum level in that time.

As far as my feeling on the Judge? Never liked it. It would be good for snakes with .410 birdshot, but it's a big clunky revolver with 45 Colt, and it offers no advantages over a regular revolver in that caliber. Seems to be popular with the street crowd, a crowd that just doesn't understand that shotgun shells out of a pistol are going slow....

Now, muzzle energy numbers are absolutely true and calculable. They're right based on weight and velocity (we can do the math, if you like) but you've got to look at how they're derived. What's the barrel length? Action? Lots of claims on pistol ammo numbers (velocity, and therefore ME) when shot from a 6 inch barrel, but you're clearly not going to get the same numbers on that ammo from a 2 1/2" or even a 4" barrel. (Note, this is why I like Buffalo Bore ammo, their published 10mm numbers, for example, are from a Glock 20, no "stunt" barrels just to get good numbers, the numbers are real world).

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
I own a six shot 357. I keep a 10 shot .40 cal handy. I would rather not be shot by any caliber or gauge.

A teenage friend died from a load of 12 ga 7 1/2 shot 50 years ago. Just a stupid accident, but don't say bird shot isn't lethal.


Any cartridge can be lethal, but bird shot is not one you would want to rely on. I have a friend who is a cop that has seen a man take two barrels of it from a SxS shotgun at close range and walk to the ambulance. His chest looked like ground chuck, but he was awake, conscious, and mobile. In other words, he would still very much be in a fight. **** Cheney also shot an old man in the face and neck with bird shot and the guy did not go down. If birdshot were reliable, law enforcement agencies or a military would have used it at some time.