Investors....come in please!

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" money market funds called "mid-cap index fund""

Are we mixing terms here? Do you mean mutual funds?

Mid-caps had an OK run.

They should do OK, but got really hammer recently so may be a buy now.

The real question is: a LOW COST index fund OR a LOW COST properly managed fund.

If in doubt, buy both.

I like: FMCSX right now.

PS I'm not an "index" nut. What is so special about selecting a fund the is guaranteed to underperform an index?
 
JMH: Thanks for the tip on the ING direct type savings account. I'll check them out. We plan to leave $5,000 in a savings account after investing the $37,000. If the savings account goes above that we'll periodically invest the amount above $5,000 in the mid-cap index fund.

Pablo: Slip of the tongue on my part. I should have said mutual fund, not money market fund. And as I said, I want the fund I choose to be well run and low cost, among other things. The Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund was recommended more than any other mid-cap index fund by the "experts" whose opinions I read in my fairly extensive internet reserarch.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:

The real question is: a LOW COST index fund OR a LOW COST properly managed fund.


from yahoo finance:

code:



Expense FMCSX CategoryAvg

Total Expense Ratio: 0.72% 1.58%

Max 12b1 Fee: 0.00% N/A

Max Front End Sales Load: 0.00% 5.20%

Max Deferred Sales Load: 0.00% 2.77%

3 Yr Expense Projection*: $227 $744

5 Yr Expense Projection*: $395 $1,120

10 Yr Expense Projection*: $883 $2,202



code:





Expense VIMSX CategoryAvg

Total Expense Ratio: 0.22% 1.42%

Max 12b1 Fee: 0.00% N/A

Max Front End Sales Load: 0.00% 5.23%

Max Deferred Sales Load: 0.00% 2.65%

3 Yr Expense Projection*: $71 $717

5 Yr Expense Projection*: $124 $972

10 Yr Expense Projection*: $280 $1,932


So it depends on how you define low cost...

Both are 4 stars... VMISX has 5-Year Average Return: 10.08% FMCSX has 5-Year Average Return: 4.14% FWIW.

That said, per my PFO purchase and whatnot, Ive found that you (pablo) are good at knowing the funds and ETFs... something that I have yet to be clued in on... however, given the metrics showed above, what would be the point of going with the fidelity funds??

I know my grandparents have had vanguard funds nearly forever, and hey have been very happy with them.

JMH
 
Jmac - sounds like you are doing some keen research, which is a good thing. Certainly nothing wrong with Vanguard - they value the importance of keeping costs down.

I just have this thing with indexes...two mid cap funds:

VIMSX up 4.4% this year and 5 year ave = 10%:
quote:

The investment seeks to track the performance of a benchmark index that measures the investment return of mid-capitalization stocks. The fund employs a passive management investment approach designed to track the performance of the MSCI US Mid Cap 450 index, a broadly diversified index of the stocks of medium-size U.S. companies

FMCSX up 9.2% this year, 5 year, 4%:
quote:

The investment seeks long-term growth of capital. The fund normally invests at least 80% of assets in equity securities issued by companies with medium-size market capitalizations. Companies that fall within the capitalization range of the S&P MidCap 400 Index and the Russell MidCap Index are considered for investment.

The very foundation of the funds is different.

Now I will say that the expense of the Vanguard fund are exceptional at .22%, the Fidelity fund is still a great .72% which is super for a managed fund.

Also, in favor of the Vanguard fund is it's lower volatility and stronger past perfomance. The Fidelity fund shows more potential for growth.

The other problem with funds in general is the inability to determine future performance from past results.

Midcaps should be part of a well balanced portfolio, IMHO.

EDIT: JMH - I posted this not knowing of your (essentially the same) post. All I can say is watch out for 5 year performance indicators. 2000-2005 is what you are seeing. A strange time in the market to be sure. I'd rather go short term and 10 year, as of 2006. OR look at the average annual return for the life of the fund. Fid is almost 13% and Van is about 10%

[ July 19, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
 
Pablo: Well I've also got this thing about index funds, especially versus actively managed funds. I realize that this is one of the key divisions and issues among investors. Which type of mutual fund investing in stocks does better? My fairly extensive internet reading tells me that over the past 20 years index funds as a whole have outperformed actively managed funds. One reason for this is that the cost to the investor is significantly higher with the average actively managed fund than with the average index fund.
 
But I think thats the point... If you manage to wade through the thousands upon thousands of funds out there, and find ones that are actively managed, yet have low fees, then you have gems. In the past, I suppose it was much harder to get the information, but since we now have computers, we can quickly and efficiently find the info.

Take the info I posted as an example. The vanguard fund has 0.22% expenses, but the category average for whatever the category the fund is in, is 1.42. For the fidelity, its fees are 0.72, but 1.58% for the group as a whole - those add up to big differences, that errode the bottom line. however, the difference between 0.22 and 0.72 might be quite small, especially if the operation of the fund if quite good and the performance more than balances it out.

Its a lot to consider, and though I do not consider smart DD based investing a gamble... I might consider the trust in the fund companies' performance and operations to be a gamble sometimes.

JMH
 
jmac - I agree. But most index funds have not been around for 20 years. And to compare index funds vs. all other funds is not exactly fair. Take the top 50 (or whatever) performing funds of all time, or 10 or 20 years...how many are index funds? Usually none or nor many.

Here's some of my "rules"

1) Avoid those high cost funds. I mean some funds have over 2% expenses! I find 1% nasty, but will occasionally pick a sector fund close to 1% just to ride that sector.

2) Try to find low cost funds that outperform the indexes. This takes a bit more research.

3) If everything else is equal (rarely is), trade ETF (or CEF's). Just a small brokerage commission, no penalty for short term.

4) Don't stick with one fund family. I own many families. That's why I like Fidelity. I own Vanguard and others within my Fidelity Brokerage account. No trading fees!
 
Now if you want to know my real opinion of mutual funds, I will tell you:

A necessary evil for those of us who work.

Otherwise I would build my own funds. (Which I do for about 50% of my portfolio)

Now onto more pleasant things. Who didn't kick some hiney today?
 
I don't know if money market funds called
"mid-cap index fund" have been discussed in this thread and its obviously too time consuming to wade through 2,438 posts to find out. I did do a search for that term and got no hits.

Anyway, I'm going to retire on Oct.30. We have about $37,000 in a bank savings account that we've managed to save over the past year and a half. Obviously, this is not the ideal place in terms of return on investment, so I'm looking to park it somewhere else where the risk is in the lower range and the return is hopefully in the higher range for mutual funds invested in stocks. We owe nobody anything, including on the house and vehicles. Our income upon my retirement should be enough for us to live comfortably, but only comfortably. After doing a lot of internet research, I've tentatively decided on a mid-cap index money market fund. For those of you not familiar with the terms, mid-cap means the fund invests its money in medium sized corporations, usually defined as those with a total shares value of from 1 billion to, depending on whose definition you use, 7-12 billion, dollars. An index is a list of companies in the field that the fund invests in. In this case, the field is medium sized companies. It can be all the companies, most of the companies, or a representative list of the companies. Again, the definition of the index depends on who's doing the defining. There are some well known and often used indexes. The theory behind a mid-cap index fund is basically that the companies are big enough that they have a low likelihood of failure, because they've moved out of the small company stage, and small enough that they are still in the innovation and up and coming stage and have room to grow. Over the past 20 years, mid-cap index funds have performed admirably. The fund managers simply invest the funds in the companies listed in the index, either by investing the same amount in each company, or investing in each company an amount proportional to the size of the company.
I want a fund that's well known, been around awhile, well run, has a good reputation, has minimal fees and costs charged to the investor, and has a good track record over at least the past 8-10 years. After looking at a lot of mid-cap index funds I've tentatively decided on the Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund. We do not plan to use the fund to supplement our income. We'd like to leave the money there, with any returns reinvested in the fund. We'd only sell shares to fund an emergency that we can't otherewise pay for or, perhaps, a major discretionary expense that we cannot otherwise afford. My question to you guys is: What do you think of mid-cap index funds in general and my particular choice of such a fund? Here's a link to Vanguard's page on their fund. As you can see, the return on investment has averaged 11.47% over the past 8 years since the fund was established:

http://flagship2.vanguard.com/VGApp/hnw/FundsSnapshot?FundId=0859&FundIntExt=INT
 
Don't worry either you got brains to P in your boot or you don't. My dad always used to yell:

"You ain't got brains to pour psis out of your boot"

I always wondered how much brains it took to get it there in the first place.
 
OOOoohhhh... Major F...up yesterday. Lost ~2K. Rats! Gonna take the rest of the summer to recover. The good news is I'm still up 9% YTD. Another one of those learning experiances.
 
My lovely AAPL is up $7+ today.
Glad I didn't listen to these idiot online "analysts"
Going to go look at garage plans now - looks like I'll have some spare cash soon.

Scott
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
Yes AAPL is juiced! Gotta love it or rather love the ipod. Which idiots said to avoid AAPL (and their suppliers?)

About 99% of al the online "analysts"
Idiots.
They just hate Apple/Jobs so much that they hammer it into the ground.
I'm enjoying it though - let them have their fun while I count the money.

Scott
 
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