Interesting Views

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Originally Posted By: tropic
I dunno, but Rofl's posts don't bug me the way they do some members. He's got some interesting views .....


I will be posting less.

It comes from being a good diagnostician.

You need to look at the car as a series of systems, and understand how the systems work together to correctly translate symptoms observed into a correct diagnosis.

Otherwise you wind up being a serial parts replacer who blunders around replacing things until something good happens.

Once you learn that skill, it works on nearly everything.

For example, back a few years ago my physician gave me three prescriptions to deal with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. Within a month my legs started aching and then they started turning purple.

I went back to her and told her some medication she gave me must be causing problem. Nope, it was "venous insufficiency".

After six months of trying to deal with "venous insufficiency" through exercise, I went to a nearby medical school and sat down in the library with the names of the pills she prescribed.

It turned out that one of them, a beta blocker, created a problem called "Raynard's Syndrome" which overlapped the symptoms of "venous insufficiency" about 90%. It was a rare side effect but it was fully documented in the literature.

So I stopped taking the beta blocker. And my legs started getting better. So I went back to the physician and explained what I found and had done. And she argued with me.

So I fired her.

When you get some information, and this works in every discipline and situation, you need to think outside the box and put it in context.

Otherwise you will wind up making mistakes like my doctor, or replacing the wrong parts, or making war to find Weapons of Mass Destruction where there are none, or deciding Ashland Refining could not possibly be wrong.

Linear thinking leads to nothing but trouble.

Jumping to conclusions leads to nothing but trouble.

"Knowing" the answer before the data arrives leads to nothing but trouble.

Those who think linearly and jump to conclusions, be they motor oil pundits or physicians, really get angry at people who don't and point out what they are doing.

Demanding hard data and incontrovertible proof drives them right up the wall.





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I once dated a doctor who told me that it's not unusual for people to sometimes know more about a malady than the doctor herself... especially a smart person who is willing to do the research and understands what he reads. It stands to reason that doctors can't research every sickness and the complications to that level of detail and become the experts that the patients themselves have become. Then there's the aspect of dealing with the egos of their profession.

The same also applies to auto repair. I tell people I'm an expert on my own car's problems. With their cars I may have to waffle a bit.

I too don't like to "throw parts at the car" as some mechanics do. Whenever possible I'll repair the part itself.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Then there's the aspect of dealing with the egos of their profession.


One my sons is a physician.

It is interesting when Herr Doctor collides with Der Papa.



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Rolf,

I respect your way of thinking and it adds another perspective here.

The problem I have is that often we don't have, and can't get the "hard data and incontrovertible proof". Based on where I work, I also know that questionable data can be manipulated by the skilled researcher.

Without getting into religion, how do you deal with spiritual issues? Does it drive you batty? Not having proof? It does me, to some extent. Again, lets not talk religion, but I'm just bringing up the idea of forming opinions when data is not available.

I hope you stay here to attempt to keep the rest of us honest. What fun would it be if we all agree?
 
Originally Posted By: Rolf


When you get some information, and this works in every discipline and situation, you need to think outside the box and put it in context.

Otherwise you will wind up making mistakes like my doctor, or replacing the wrong parts, or making war to find Weapons of Mass Destruction where there are none, or deciding Ashland Refining could not possibly be wrong.

Linear thinking leads to nothing but trouble.

.


I assume you know that what you are describing has a formal name - Systems Thinking?

As a fellow fan of the practice I would hate to see you post less.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Rolf,

Without getting into religion, how do you deal with spiritual issues? Does it drive you batty? Not having proof? It does me, to some extent. Again, lets not talk religion, but I'm just bringing up the idea of forming opinions when data is not available.


A central idea of systems theory is "process within context".

Life is a process of exploration. Spirituality is about exploring upwards to find the context. If you ever found the whole true context, then spirituality would stop. So continuous searching, with only crumbs as rewards is the nature of the beast. Once you realize that, you are comfortable with uncertainty and the lack of hard data is not an issue.

This has a name too - Process Philosphy, and Process Theology.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Without getting into religion, how do you deal with spiritual issues? Does it drive you batty? Not having proof? It does me, to some extent. Again, lets not talk religion, but I'm just bringing up the idea of forming opinions when data is not available.


I used to worrry at it quite a bit.

My solution to it, I found out later, is known as "Pascal's Wager":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

"Pascal begins with the premise that the existence or non-existence of God is not provable by human reason, since the essence of God is "infinitely incomprehensible". Since reason cannot decide the question, one must "wager", either by guessing or making a leap of faith. Agnosticism on this point is not possible, in Pascal's view, for we are already "embarked", effectively living out our choice."

"We only have two things to stake, our "reason" and our "happiness". Pascal considers that there is "equal risk of loss and gain", a coin toss, since human reason is powerless to address the question of God's existence. That being the case, we then must decide it according to our happiness... by weighing the gain and loss in believing that God exists. He contends the wise decision is to wager that God exists, since "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing", meaning one can gain eternal life if God exists, but if not, one will be no worse off in death than if one had not believed."

"Pascal recognizes that the wagerer is risking something, namely his life on earth, by devoting it to one cause or another, but here he uses probabilistic analysis to show that it would be a wise wager even if one were to gain only three lives at the risk of losing one. Considering that everyone is forced to wager and the potential gain is actually infinite life, it would be acting "stupidly" not to wager that God exists."

Since I see most things probabilistically, this feels quite comfortable to me.




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Originally Posted By: Rolf
For example, back a few years ago my physician gave me three prescriptions to deal with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. Within a month my legs started aching and then they started turning purple.

I went back to her and told her some medication she gave me must be causing problem. Nope, it was "venous insufficiency".

After six months of trying to deal with "venous insufficiency" through exercise, I went to a nearby medical school and sat down in the library with the names of the pills she prescribed.

It turned out that one of them, a beta blocker, created a problem called "Raynard's Syndrome" which overlapped the symptoms of "venous insufficiency" about 90%. It was a rare side effect but it was fully documented in the literature.

So I stopped taking the beta blocker. And my legs started getting better. So I went back to the physician and explained what I found and had done. And she argued with me.

So I fired her.
Hey, that is pretty interesting.
grin2.gif
 
Quote:
So I fired her.
Quote:
Hey, that is pretty interesting.
grin2.gif



Works for me. In the last 10 years I've fired 3 doctors, 2 insurance cos. and a physical therapist..
 
"Demanding hard data and incontrovertible proof drives them right up the wall"

I believe the hard data that one member here showed us a while back. Never received any hard data to refute it, only a scathing, ugly, bitter, revengeful campaign to censor it.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
"Demanding hard data and incontrovertible proof drives them right up the wall"

I believe the hard data that one member here showed us a while back. Never received any hard data to refute it, only a scathing, ugly, bitter, revengeful campaign to censor it.



What constitutes incontrivertible?

I say incontrivertable is in the eye of the beholder.

...and you can't convince me otherwise
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: TooManyWheels
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
"Demanding hard data and incontrovertible proof drives them right up the wall"

I believe the hard data that one member here showed us a while back. Never received any hard data to refute it, only a scathing, ugly, bitter, revengeful campaign to censor it.



What constitutes incontrivertible?

I say incontrivertable is in the eye of the beholder.

...and you can't convince me otherwise
grin2.gif




Word
crackmeup2.gif


The world would work much better if they all saw it my way
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I believe the hard data that one member here showed us a while back.


Topic?

Hard data?

Any particulars?




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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some truths are more equal than others.


Certainly if you're selling something.



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Originally Posted By: TooManyWheels
What constitutes incontrevertible?


It usually helps if there a data point or two.



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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
"Demanding hard data and incontrovertible proof drives them right up the wall"

I believe the hard data that one member here showed us a while back. Never received any hard data to refute it, only a scathing, ugly, bitter, revengeful campaign to censor it.



But look at who is still around and what happened as a result of that...
 
Originally Posted By: Rolf
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some truths are more equal than others.


Certainly if you're selling something.



.


It usually helps if there a data point or two.

grin2.gif










(Witchhazel pause)
crackmeup2.gif
 
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