Interesting push for EV's in government.

[Cujet]

I'll leave the links out, and simply suggest that readers search on their own. I'm very hesitant to post anything that could be politically related, but in this case, I hope to point out the enourmous number of vehicles to be exchanged and the associated potential business opportunities that may be coming about.

Government has a fleet of about 650,000 vehicles, only 3215 of which are electric. This push may in fact mandate that EV's replace their fuel powered federal, state, tribal, postal, and local fleets. It's good to note that many government vehicles are in some ways, unusual, an example might be local delivery mail trucks. Smaller volume manufacturers will have an opportunity to produce components for such vehicles.

And of course, rescue charging services... (Just a little joke, please don't take it seriously)

Another little joke:

They are more likely to look like this:

 

[Cujet]

I like the idea of induction wheel and/or hub motors. No perm magnets to attract iron, and no drivetrain losses to deal with. Just 4 wheels driven directly. Yes, it adds markedly to unsprung weight. However, not so much when compared to a live rear axle. The technology is in it's infancy, and there are very interesting motor designs that are far more compact than conventional motors. Note: on the order of 3x.

An interesting link: (these guys do some really, really cool stuff)

National MagLab - MagLab

The MagLab is the largest and highest powered magnet lab in the world, offering scientists free access to unique instruments and expertise to help advance basic science, engineering and technology in the 21st century.

nationalmaglab.org

 

[DuckRyder]

intresting

USPS has just bought a ton of MB Metris... ive seen 4-5 truck loads if them over the last month or two ...

 

[PimTac]

If EVs are the future then I’m surprised this route hasn’t been taken already. Federal, State and local governments have a lot of vehicles that could have gone EV. Then you add in the USPS, and other large fleet operations.

 

[Job]

Going all day every day may tax the battery sooner, expensive. The mail trucks on my route now seem to be running with bad engines, but the workers drive the heck out of them engine noises or not. They sound terrible. Ev would save a lot of ongoing maintenance costs, as well as the pollution.
Looking at Weber auto’s tear downs, the ev transmissions are simple and strong. It seems to me a central motor would be easier to electrify and isn’t the problem area. I think it’s still the battery.
Looking up some info, in 1919 GE made a direct drive system for locomotives.

Milwaukee Road class EP-2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JustinH]

The only alternate fuel vehicles I have ever driven have been all owned by Local or State government.

We had several propane f150's that no one wanted to take out of town because of fear of getting stuck with no fuel.

They were sold years later with probably 15k miles on them for dimes on the dollar.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I am interested in the charging requirements challenge and how it is met.
Exciting times ahead. Opportunity abounds!

 

[supton]

Somebody has to be the early adopter. I'm all for letting others try something else on their dime! well, in this case it may be my dime (or fraction of a cent), but I think the gov buys vehicles with a definite lifespan in mind. When done they can be tossed as they have done what they were purchased to do. They want 'em, they can buy 'em.

Bit hard to get EV out here, the gov vehicles I see are mostly highway trucks. All the rural mail routes are done by personal vehicle by the looks of it. Not sure how many miles each of those mail carriers racks up but it probably isn't a short distance each day.

 

[Cujet]

I am interested in the charging requirements challenge and how it is met.
Exciting times ahead. Opportunity abounds!

Fleet charging at "home base" such as the Post Office, will likely be the norm. Despite Tesla's claims of range (which don't match other EV makers, even with the same specs) , real working delivery or Bus EV's (such as vans and pickup trucks or city buses) tend not to achieve what we would consider good range. An example is Rivian's pickup truck achieving only 80 mile of range in delivery service. And city buses with only 70 miles of range. Such service is particularly hard on vehicles, and requires long term heat and air conditioning, often with heavy cargo loads.

As for battery life, it's my belief that with the best modern cells, cycles are much less of a problem than is calendar degradation. 2170's take a capacity hit during the first 200 cycles or so, then retain remaining capacity nicely for thousands of cycles. Of course, "sandbagging" hides how much loss is really present. Taking a 120Kwh battery and limiting it, via software, to 100Kwh, then only noting and calculating the decline when it drops below 95Kwh capacity is what I'm talking about. A 5% loss in range over 200 cycles sounds a lot more palatable than 30%.

 

[Cujet]

There may be a market for "range extenders". This is an interesting prospect, because the generator head need not be 120 or 240V, or 3600 RPM. 800 volt, 3 phase, 6000 or even 8000 RPM generators are amazingly small and light. 30,000 watts is slightly larger than a big fist, and the generator can be internal to the powerplant, bathed in and cooled by lubricant. I saw a 5000W briefcase sized, wankel powered, multi fuel generator at a trade show. Most of the briefcase was fuel. The engine and integral generator were tiny.

 

[JeffKeryk]

“Everyone knew it was impossible, until a fool who didn’t know came along and did it. The wing structure of the hornet, in relation to its weight, is not suitable for flight, but it does not know this and flies anyway.”

A.Einstein

 

[supton]

There may be a market for "range extenders". This is an interesting prospect, because the generator head need not be 120 or 240V, or 3600 RPM. 800 volt, 3 phase, 6000 or even 8000 RPM generators are amazingly small and light. 30,000 watts is slightly larger than a big fist, and the generator can be internal to the powerplant, bathed in and cooled by lubricant. I saw a 5000W briefcase sized, wankel powered, multi fuel generator at a trade show. Most of the briefcase was fuel. The engine and integral generator were tiny.

I've always wondered about this. I remember discussing this, like 20 years ago, wondering if an engine could be run at one rpm, one load and thus optimized to convert gasoline into electrical energy as efficiently as possible. Was told "nope". Having two motors in car? A heavy battery AND a heavy gas engine? No way it'd work.

Then hybrids pulled it off. Go figure.

It does seem that successful hybrids are not series creatures though, always parallel. I get it, under full load the conversions bite you. So this range extender idea, while I think it has merit, hasn't seemed to work so far. At least not in the general market.

In this case, a 5kW genset is only 6.7hp. It'd need to scale up a bit, to what I don't know, 20hp maybe? Someone on flat ground, going 75mph, on a 1,000 mile road trip... 20hp is my wager as to what a range extender would need to be sized to. Some excess capacity on the flats so as to charge.

 

[Cujet]

It does seem that successful hybrids are not series creatures though, always parallel. I get it, under full load the conversions bite you. So this range extender idea, while I think it has merit, hasn't seemed to work so far. At least not in the general market.

In this case, a 5kW genset is only 6.7hp. It'd need to scale up a bit, to what I don't know, 20hp maybe?

Interestingly, both Honda and Chevy tried the "generator" concept, with expected loss in efficiency. Both clutch the engine to the wheels directly at higher speeds.

The 5kw generator was simply a project for the military. It was really neat due to it's compact nature. While I did not hear it run, the company noted that it was exceedingly loud. I'm 100% sure it's efficiency was horrific and so on.

However, your point is spot on. A 20HP emergency range extender would be appropriate for smaller vehicles, and could be very compact, not needing to have a long service life, or to be particularly refined. I've designed something similar for small drones. It's amazing what one can build when traditional requirements are discarded.

 

[DuckRyder]

Isn't that what a BMW i3 RE does, has a scooter engine that charges the battery when it it very low...

Also i seem to recall reading (when i was looking to buy one) that the engine in a current Honda insight never actually powers the wheels..

 

[Cujet]

Isn't that what a BMW i3 RE does, has a scooter engine that charges the battery when it it very low...

Also i seem to recall reading (when i was looking to buy one) that the engine in a current Honda insight never actually powers the wheels..

Honda hybrids do clutch the engine directly to the wheels. No transmission at all. Just a clutch. It's like 5th gear relationship when the engine finally engages directly. Most efficient.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Great ... now my mail will be even later because the EV will need a charge half way through the route.

 

[Cujet]

BITOG has the brains to produce a fossil fuel range extender. Just sayin....

As I mentioned, fleet EV's are often incapable of meeting the range targets. Depending on the city in question, for example, a city bus in use will travel about 150 miles per day. With a real world range of 70 miles, that requires 3 full charges per day. One of the problems is that regenerative braking is not particularly effective in some city delivery or city bus cycles. Another issue is that the heat/AC loads are very high.

Yes, there are bus designs that can supposedly do 200 miles in a day. But careful review shows that a bus equipped with 300Kwh of batteries produce only 140 miles of mixed driving range and even that requires half the miles to be a highway trip at slow speeds, in some tests as slow as 40MPH on the highway.

School buses may be a good choice for electric power, as they can charge for hours during the school day, and at night, They often don't have to complete as many miles per day.

Even Rivian, a company known for outrageous claims, has shown that their Amazon delivery van can achieve as much as 150 miles range....

 

[Job]

Somebody has to be the early adopter. I'm all for letting others try something else on their dime! well, in this case it may be my dime (or fraction of a cent), but I think the gov buys vehicles with a definite lifespan in mind. When done they can be tossed as they have done what they were purchased to do. They want 'em, they can buy 'em.

Bit hard to get EV out here, the gov vehicles I see are mostly highway trucks. All the rural mail routes are done by personal vehicle by the looks of it. Not sure how many miles each of those mail carriers racks up but it probably isn't a short distance each day.

Government throwing away vehicles is as old as vehicles. Sometimes barely used vehicles. Not thrown away but auctioned at low prices..

Honda hybrids do clutch the engine directly to the wheels. No transmission at all. Just a clutch. It's like 5th gear relationship when the engine finally engages directly. Most efficient.

They all go through gears and a differential as far as I know. Has to be that way, right

 

[JeffKeryk]

I can tell you how this will probably go. The government will award contracts to GM and Ford because their workers are unionized. Tesla's are not.
And it will amount to another bailout at taxpayer's expense and the government will end up with the worst EV's on the market.

In support of the iniative, the purchases should be made based on the best products.
Right now, that is Tesla.

 

[4WD]

In support of the iniative, the purchases should be made based on the best products.
Right now, that is Tesla.

All good if done as vehicles need replacement … and based on where they operate …
But, is it going to be managed like that … ?