Interesting GM presentation on new Dexos for 2016
- Thread starter Jake777
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Yes, good point. More control on where it goes from here.
Start Stop function is hard to the oil, because everytime you shut the engine down, you get a couple of spoons of oil cooking in the ring pack and turbo bearing, from the lack of circulation.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Start Stop function is hard to the oil, because everytime you shut the engine down, you get a couple of spoons of oil cooking in the ring pack and turbo bearing, from the lack of circulation.
Not talking a turbo engine that may well coke after a hot shutdown, by comparison the hybrids place little strain on the engine... If there were a couple spoon fulls of oil in the rings, oil consumption would be uncontrollable... Likely not more than ¼ drop that quickly drains down the inside of piston...
Also just a thought, has anyone seen actual reference that a 5W-20 oil improves MPG over 5W-30 on the average of .6% claimed??? Who's to say the 5W-20 isn't being compared to 10W-30 or 40??
Start Stop function is hard to the oil, because everytime you shut the engine down, you get a couple of spoons of oil cooking in the ring pack and turbo bearing, from the lack of circulation.
Not talking a turbo engine that may well coke after a hot shutdown, by comparison the hybrids place little strain on the engine... If there were a couple spoon fulls of oil in the rings, oil consumption would be uncontrollable... Likely not more than ¼ drop that quickly drains down the inside of piston...
Also just a thought, has anyone seen actual reference that a 5W-20 oil improves MPG over 5W-30 on the average of .6% claimed??? Who's to say the 5W-20 isn't being compared to 10W-30 or 40??
I See GM is still very much in favor that 5w30 provides an overall balance between protection and fuel economy.
I watched the YouTube presentation right through. I thought her hair looked really nice. Sadly that's where the positives stopped and the black despair set in.
Where to start? Dexos 2? (big sigh!) New oil specs are a bit like yet another diet plan. We've had The F-Plan, Banting, The Cabbage Soup Diet, The Aktins thing plus loads more. Each promises more than the last one yet today we have record numbers of morbidly obese people. In the last twenty years we've had new engine oils specs from API, ACEA, ILSAC, MB, VW, GM, Ford. Each new iteration of spec says it 'does more' but does it really?? All I see is less ZDDP, heavier ZDDP, a move to thinner oils, a move to higher volatility oils, a move to low SAP oils, oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap, a massive ramp up in the cost of developing new oils and engine oils who's cost does not fall one iota even though the price of crude oil has dropped to it's lowest level in 11 years! And the benefits to the average consumer? Marginal fuel economy benefits which are totally obliterated by the shift to bigger and bigger cars and in the US particularly, any improvements in oil quality are nullified by the fact that most oils are euthanised after 5,000 miles. And it is just me that reads BITOG and is concerned by the high number of people complaining of high oil consumption and still there's no change in the NOACK spec for GF-6? And the train is showing no sign of halting. All this talk of low speed pre-ignition needing to be fixed even though this phenomenon is so rare that even when you are purposely looking for it, you have to do ten consecutive tests to know whether you actually saw it! This really is no way to run a circus...
PS - Natural colour or dyed?? Think dyed...
Where to start? Dexos 2? (big sigh!) New oil specs are a bit like yet another diet plan. We've had The F-Plan, Banting, The Cabbage Soup Diet, The Aktins thing plus loads more. Each promises more than the last one yet today we have record numbers of morbidly obese people. In the last twenty years we've had new engine oils specs from API, ACEA, ILSAC, MB, VW, GM, Ford. Each new iteration of spec says it 'does more' but does it really?? All I see is less ZDDP, heavier ZDDP, a move to thinner oils, a move to higher volatility oils, a move to low SAP oils, oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap, a massive ramp up in the cost of developing new oils and engine oils who's cost does not fall one iota even though the price of crude oil has dropped to it's lowest level in 11 years! And the benefits to the average consumer? Marginal fuel economy benefits which are totally obliterated by the shift to bigger and bigger cars and in the US particularly, any improvements in oil quality are nullified by the fact that most oils are euthanised after 5,000 miles. And it is just me that reads BITOG and is concerned by the high number of people complaining of high oil consumption and still there's no change in the NOACK spec for GF-6? And the train is showing no sign of halting. All this talk of low speed pre-ignition needing to be fixed even though this phenomenon is so rare that even when you are purposely looking for it, you have to do ten consecutive tests to know whether you actually saw it! This really is no way to run a circus...
PS - Natural colour or dyed?? Think dyed...
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Start Stop function is hard to the oil, because everytime you shut the engine down, you get a couple of spoons of oil cooking in the ring pack and turbo bearing, from the lack of circulation.
Not talking a turbo engine that may well coke after a hot shutdown, by comparison the hybrids place little strain on the engine... If there were a couple spoon fulls of oil in the rings, oil consumption would be uncontrollable... Likely not more than ¼ drop that quickly drains down the inside of piston...
Also just a thought, has anyone seen actual reference that a 5W-20 oil improves MPG over 5W-30 on the average of .6% claimed??? Who's to say the 5W-20 isn't being compared to 10W-30 or 40??
A quarter of a drop, are you sure? Even though, the least the amount, the more stressing for the remaining of oil, specially films.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Start Stop function is hard to the oil, because everytime you shut the engine down, you get a couple of spoons of oil cooking in the ring pack and turbo bearing, from the lack of circulation.
Not talking a turbo engine that may well coke after a hot shutdown, by comparison the hybrids place little strain on the engine... If there were a couple spoon fulls of oil in the rings, oil consumption would be uncontrollable... Likely not more than ¼ drop that quickly drains down the inside of piston...
Also just a thought, has anyone seen actual reference that a 5W-20 oil improves MPG over 5W-30 on the average of .6% claimed??? Who's to say the 5W-20 isn't being compared to 10W-30 or 40??
A quarter of a drop, are you sure? Even though, the least the amount, the more stressing for the remaining of oil, specially films.
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Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
I watched the YouTube presentation right through. I thought her hair looked really nice. Sadly that's where the positives stopped and the black despair set in.
Where to start? Dexos 2? (big sigh!) New oil specs are a bit like yet another diet plan. We've had The F-Plan, Banting, The Cabbage Soup Diet, The Aktins thing plus loads more. Each promises more than the last one yet today we have record numbers of morbidly obese people. In the last twenty years we've had new engine oils specs from API, ACEA, ILSAC, MB, VW, GM, Ford. Each new iteration of spec says it 'does more' but does it really?? All I see is less ZDDP, heavier ZDDP, a move to thinner oils, a move to higher volatility oils, a move to low SAP oils, oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap, a massive ramp up in the cost of developing new oils and engine oils who's cost does not fall one iota even though the price of crude oil has dropped to it's lowest level in 11 years! And the benefits to the average consumer? Marginal fuel economy benefits which are totally obliterated by the shift to bigger and bigger cars and in the US particularly, any improvements in oil quality are nullified by the fact that most oils are euthanised after 5,000 miles. And it is just me that reads BITOG and is concerned by the high number of people complaining of high oil consumption and still there's no change in the NOACK spec for GF-6? And the train is showing no sign of halting. All this talk of low speed pre-ignition needing to be fixed even though this phenomenon is so rare that even when you are purposely looking for it, you have to do ten consecutive tests to know whether you actually saw it! This really is no way to run a circus...
PS - Natural colour or dyed?? Think dyed...
Joe, I hear you loud and clear and do largely agree. It's getting a bit ridiculous. And btw, thank you for all the great information you provide on here.
I would argue though that engines today, despite the move to lower viscosity, are lasting and performing better than ever.
Regarding oil consumption, that is also a function of ring design and the fact that engines are running hotter, at higher rpm and producing more power.
I've used oils with a lower NOACK that performed no better, and in some cases WORSE at controlling oil consumption.
Modern oils are pretty remarkable considering the lack of old school metallic additives.
My .02.
I watched the YouTube presentation right through. I thought her hair looked really nice. Sadly that's where the positives stopped and the black despair set in.
Where to start? Dexos 2? (big sigh!) New oil specs are a bit like yet another diet plan. We've had The F-Plan, Banting, The Cabbage Soup Diet, The Aktins thing plus loads more. Each promises more than the last one yet today we have record numbers of morbidly obese people. In the last twenty years we've had new engine oils specs from API, ACEA, ILSAC, MB, VW, GM, Ford. Each new iteration of spec says it 'does more' but does it really?? All I see is less ZDDP, heavier ZDDP, a move to thinner oils, a move to higher volatility oils, a move to low SAP oils, oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap, a massive ramp up in the cost of developing new oils and engine oils who's cost does not fall one iota even though the price of crude oil has dropped to it's lowest level in 11 years! And the benefits to the average consumer? Marginal fuel economy benefits which are totally obliterated by the shift to bigger and bigger cars and in the US particularly, any improvements in oil quality are nullified by the fact that most oils are euthanised after 5,000 miles. And it is just me that reads BITOG and is concerned by the high number of people complaining of high oil consumption and still there's no change in the NOACK spec for GF-6? And the train is showing no sign of halting. All this talk of low speed pre-ignition needing to be fixed even though this phenomenon is so rare that even when you are purposely looking for it, you have to do ten consecutive tests to know whether you actually saw it! This really is no way to run a circus...
PS - Natural colour or dyed?? Think dyed...
Joe, I hear you loud and clear and do largely agree. It's getting a bit ridiculous. And btw, thank you for all the great information you provide on here.
I would argue though that engines today, despite the move to lower viscosity, are lasting and performing better than ever.
Regarding oil consumption, that is also a function of ring design and the fact that engines are running hotter, at higher rpm and producing more power.
I've used oils with a lower NOACK that performed no better, and in some cases WORSE at controlling oil consumption.
Modern oils are pretty remarkable considering the lack of old school metallic additives.
My .02.
Is PP dexos approved?
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap
This might be the golden nugget right here.
My humble opinion. This has to be a positive revenue stream for GM. It's too large of an undertaking to not be. They already develop some of the best powertrains in the industry. I can't fathom this is all to improve the statistical reliability and longevity of their offerings. They aren't having widescale issues there. Not at a time when they are simultaneously dropping powertrain warranties from 100k to 60k. Surely the current/future API & ACEA standards fit the bill here. This is looking more and more like revenues thing.
Oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap
This might be the golden nugget right here.
My humble opinion. This has to be a positive revenue stream for GM. It's too large of an undertaking to not be. They already develop some of the best powertrains in the industry. I can't fathom this is all to improve the statistical reliability and longevity of their offerings. They aren't having widescale issues there. Not at a time when they are simultaneously dropping powertrain warranties from 100k to 60k. Surely the current/future API & ACEA standards fit the bill here. This is looking more and more like revenues thing.
oil certifications are in the first place very good for the economics of the oil industry, they justify charging a premium and customers are more tha willing to pay it for an approved oil, but much less for a meets or exceeds oil....
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap
This might be the golden nugget right here.
My humble opinion. This has to be a positive revenue stream for GM. It's too large of an undertaking to not be. They already develop some of the best powertrains in the industry. I can't fathom this is all to improve the statistical reliability and longevity of their offerings. They aren't having widescale issues there. Not at a time when they are simultaneously dropping powertrain warranties from 100k to 60k. Surely the current/future API & ACEA standards fit the bill here. This is looking more and more like revenues thing.
The OEMs like GM are in thrall to Government. The oil companies pander to the OEMs. The AddCo's toady up to the oil companies and the test labs pimp themselves and their daft ideas for new tests to anyone that will pay them. Every hand washes the other hand. The trick is to keep the gravy train on the rails and make sure you're getting your share of the action (eg Dexos licensing). The only person unrepresented in this magnificent process is you, the final consumer! Rest assured that every dollar spent on new chemistry, every million dollars spent on engine testing and every penny spent on mere SAE papers will ultimately be passed on to you the final customer in higher oil cost. If there is a global industry as stitched up as this one, I for one have yet to see it...
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Oils that are totally bent out of shape to meet combined specs that were never designed to overlap
This might be the golden nugget right here.
My humble opinion. This has to be a positive revenue stream for GM. It's too large of an undertaking to not be. They already develop some of the best powertrains in the industry. I can't fathom this is all to improve the statistical reliability and longevity of their offerings. They aren't having widescale issues there. Not at a time when they are simultaneously dropping powertrain warranties from 100k to 60k. Surely the current/future API & ACEA standards fit the bill here. This is looking more and more like revenues thing.
The OEMs like GM are in thrall to Government. The oil companies pander to the OEMs. The AddCo's toady up to the oil companies and the test labs pimp themselves and their daft ideas for new tests to anyone that will pay them. Every hand washes the other hand. The trick is to keep the gravy train on the rails and make sure you're getting your share of the action (eg Dexos licensing). The only person unrepresented in this magnificent process is you, the final consumer! Rest assured that every dollar spent on new chemistry, every million dollars spent on engine testing and every penny spent on mere SAE papers will ultimately be passed on to you the final customer in higher oil cost. If there is a global industry as stitched up as this one, I for one have yet to see it...
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Originally Posted By: Jake777
If your GM the reason is clear. You want control over the standard that you plan on running in every vehicle you make.
I've been an engineer for years, and I think almost every company has two faces: Engineering, and Business Varmints (BV). The BV types at GM will look at dexos and say "Why are we shouldering the entire burden here?" Like other standards in the past, American, Japanese, and Korean car makers tend to have similar oil interests, so its natural for there to be what are essentially non-German oil specs, while the Germans will likely never get on board.
For example, Ford could take deposits tests, GM wear tests, Toyota friction modification, etc, and an independent committee, comprised of all the ILSAC GF-x newly unemployed engineers could approve each test (comments and modifications). Sure dexos royalties could be split based on world car market share and workload, but the BVs never saw all this as too significant anyway. ACEA and GF-x tests get absorbed into dexos, unifying Europe non-German specs with the rest of the west. Simplifying. World domination comes next.....
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
Surely the current/future API & ACEA standards fit the bill here. This is looking more and more like revenues thing.
Every hand washes the other hand. The trick is to keep the gravy train on the rails and make sure you're getting your share of the action (eg Dexos licensing). The only person unrepresented in this magnificent process is you, the final consumer!
This is where the bean counter business types at OEMs can save us. (Never thought I'd ever say that...) They don't want unnecessary junk going on which complicates it all and raises costs.
If your GM the reason is clear. You want control over the standard that you plan on running in every vehicle you make.
I've been an engineer for years, and I think almost every company has two faces: Engineering, and Business Varmints (BV). The BV types at GM will look at dexos and say "Why are we shouldering the entire burden here?" Like other standards in the past, American, Japanese, and Korean car makers tend to have similar oil interests, so its natural for there to be what are essentially non-German oil specs, while the Germans will likely never get on board.
For example, Ford could take deposits tests, GM wear tests, Toyota friction modification, etc, and an independent committee, comprised of all the ILSAC GF-x newly unemployed engineers could approve each test (comments and modifications). Sure dexos royalties could be split based on world car market share and workload, but the BVs never saw all this as too significant anyway. ACEA and GF-x tests get absorbed into dexos, unifying Europe non-German specs with the rest of the west. Simplifying. World domination comes next.....
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
Surely the current/future API & ACEA standards fit the bill here. This is looking more and more like revenues thing.
Every hand washes the other hand. The trick is to keep the gravy train on the rails and make sure you're getting your share of the action (eg Dexos licensing). The only person unrepresented in this magnificent process is you, the final consumer!
This is where the bean counter business types at OEMs can save us. (Never thought I'd ever say that...) They don't want unnecessary junk going on which complicates it all and raises costs.
After watching that presentation I have new respect for GM.
Did anyone appreciate how the speaker iterated how engine design is key element in whether an oil achieves FE? And I think she stated going something to the effect that you can up or down in viscosity and get FE gains if the engine design allows it or that is a major factor in the equation?! Anyone get a healthy appreciation for engine design now?!
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