Interesting Article on High Vs Low Viscosity Oil..

[Analyzer]

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

Here's an thought provoking passage in the article considering 5W20 weight oil:

"To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5w30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5w30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?"

Interesting fact considering Europe has notoriously cooler ambient temperatures and more stringent quality controls over oil manufacturers and testing procedures.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Are the oil change intervals the same in Europe vs US? Many cars are on longer intervals (up to 2 years) in Europe, and the oil has to put up with fuel dilution during such a long time. So, if during this time a 5w30 thins out to a 5w-20, it is still providing enough protection. On the other hand, if you started with 5w-20, who know where it would end up after 2 years. Anyway, just a thought.

 

[redhat]

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Here we go ...

Regardless of whether or not you get improved fuel economy and regardless of whether or not 30 grade oils protect better - 20 grade oils are not going anywhere in the US.

 

[NateDN10]

All words, no data.

If 5W-20 reduced engine life in any meaningful way, we'd know about it by now. Automakers have been specifying it for over a decade.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

2003?

 

[kschachn]

Yeah, here we go again. See this thread where we discuss another article by another guy (but that you have to pay to read) that uses much the same wording as this one.

Also the same thread where I was sternly warned not to bad mouth Jim Fitch who apparently is somehow connected word-for-word with Mr. Blaine Ballentine.

 

[Analyzer]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are the oil change intervals the same in Europe vs US? Many cars are on longer intervals (up to 2 years) in Europe, and the oil has to put up with fuel dilution during such a long time. So, if during this time a 5w30 thins out to a 5w-20, it is still providing enough protection. On the other hand, if you started with 5w-20, who know where it would end up after 2 years. Anyway, just a thought.


I agree completely with you Quattro Pete. I'm not sure if he was referencing any specific OCI's, but I've commonly seen European intervals of at least 1 year/10K miles if not more. In reference to the oil thinning out it's very probable and common, especially when it comes to fuel dilution and or the VII's shearing. I personally tend to go with a higher viscosity oil (no, not 20W50) simply for the added protection/peace of mind in case the aforementioned happens, forgoing the possible 1-1.5% increase in fuel economy.

Given as stated earlier many manufacturers have gone to recommendations of 5W20 oil, like Ford and Honda for instance; but I believe it's mainly to reach CAFE requirements on fuel economy and not simply because it decreases engine wear. I find it interesting that the use of 5W20 in European Ford's will void their warranty, I don't think that the use of a 5W20 will destroy your engine or cause unprecedented wear, but I think it's logical to assume that over long term use wear might be higher than if one used a 5W30 comparatively.

Again this article isn't to start some hectic/heated debate, just a thought provoking view of thinner oils, i.e, 0W & 5W20 weighted oils.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are the oil change intervals the same in Europe vs US? Many cars are on longer intervals (up to 2 years) in Europe, and the oil has to put up with fuel dilution during such a long time. So, if during this time a 5w30 thins out to a 5w-20, it is still providing enough protection. On the other hand, if you started with 5w-20, who know where it would end up after 2 years. Anyway, just a thought.


The OCI are the same in UK and Western Europe. But Eastern Europe is a different case entirely. As is Southern Europe such as Spain and Portugal.

Thanks to the the EU Greece or any number of places in Eastern Europe are thought to be the same as France, Germany etc.

And I have direct experience of Dagenham Motors and wouldn't really listen to anything a spokesperson from that company has to say as they will simply stick to Ford oil specs.

Any article that has based its findings on the opinions of DM is not going to be the most informative

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Analyzer
I find it interesting that the use of 5W20 in European Ford's will void their warranty,

This may have been Ford's stance in 2003, when the article was written. It is not the case today. The following is a page from a UK version of a 2013 Ford Focus Owner's Manual:

 

[TrevorS]

Looks like the long CAFE arms of government have reached over the Atlantic to the UK. Government just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

 

[EddieCairns]

Recently in the UK, Ford have started selling cars with econoboost engines that are spec'd for 5w20.

This tends to be via Castrol in their professional range so is not easy to buy retail and either comes from a Ford dealer, a specific Ford parts specialist or ebay in the UK.

Suzuki spec and sell Castrol 0w20 again in the professional range for their latest small cars and again this would not be availalbe in a normal auto store.

Jaguar also use the 5w20 in certain engines in the UK.

So it looks like slowly xxW/20 oil is starting to appear in the UK.

eddie

 

[Analyzer]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Analyzer
I find it interesting that the use of 5W20 in European Ford's will void their warranty,

This may have been Ford's stance in 2003, when the article was written. It is not the case today. The following is a page from a UK version of a 2013 Ford Focus Owner's Manual:

Your right Quattro. Ford teamed up with Castrol and formulated a new oil spec (WSS M2C948 B) to utilize the 5W20 in many Euro based Ford's.

bigjl, based off your experience with Dagenham Motors do you think they would have caved in from pressure with Ford in regards to the 5W20 so they wouldn't have any competing ideologies? It seems possible they could have stuck to their guns with regards to utilizing 5W30, but decided to comply with Ford's wishes if they developed a new standard for the 5W20 to try and diminish any negative affects of using the lighter weight oil?

 

[Analyzer]

Thanks for the insight Eddie! That's interesting that it hasn't yet become commonplace at most parts houses like here in the states. Is it relatively expensive in comparison to other synthetic/mineral oil or the same cost?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are the oil change intervals the same in Europe vs US? Many cars are on longer intervals (up to 2 years) in Europe, and the oil has to put up with fuel dilution during such a long time. So, if during this time a 5w30 thins out to a 5w-20, it is still providing enough protection. On the other hand, if you started with 5w-20, who know where it would end up after 2 years. Anyway, just a thought.


Interesting thoughts, following that logic people considering extending their OCI beyond the mfg recommendations might be better served with 5W30 then. Assuming there is no warranty to contend with.

 

[Merkava_4]

From the article:
Quote:
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.


Did you guys see that?

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
2003?


Fall 1999 is when Honda released a car to the U.S. with 0w-20. It was a 3 cylinder engine inside the Insight.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
2003?


Fall 1999 is when Honda released a car to the U.S. with 0w-20. It was a 3 cylinder engine inside the Insight.


OK? In 1974 Mobil released their first grade of Mobil 1 for PCMO applications: Mobil 1 5w-20.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah, so? More subjective words - "imagine", "dangerously" and "can".

Why do I have to imagine? Why don't you tell me how thin it is, if it is too thin, and will "rupture", whatever that means. Aren't they the testing organization? Why all the subjective words? The article is filled with them.

Imagine. Well how about I imagine you tell me, Mr. Blaine Ballentine, whomever you are.

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
From the article:
Quote:
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.


Did you guys see that?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
From the article:
Quote:
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.


Did you guys see that?


Been my major point forever in terms of "headroom" for when everything isn't happening exactly correctly...there is less margin, pure and simple.