Interesting article on 9mm vs ___

[bradepb]

Quote:




A little about me...I'm a quasi balistics expert, have shot more balistics gel than I can count, have been to tons of balistics workshops including shooting through auto glass and barriers. I've spent hundreds, perhaps thousand of hours reading all the latest balistics research. I also shoot a TON and see what works, and what doesn't. I spent $30k dollars last year on ammo alone... Basically I'm a guy that takes self defense, guns, ammo, and balistics very seriously and I usually get it right when I take the time to comment on these issues.



Guys like you are great to have on a forum, seriously, and thanks for your contributions.

 

[Robenstein]

Funny sir I am looking at some test results and seeing more than one aberration that make it not 100% true. For instance 124gr JHP 9mm ammo had 2 inches less penetration than the +p version. Both had identical expansion to 0.54. Both were golden saber rounds and shot from 4 inch barreled handguns. This was published by the manufacturer themselves. The FBI tests on Speer Gold Dots also found similar results in their offering of 124 grain ammo which penetrated about 2 inches less in gelatin than the +p loading. So yes, bullet design does matter, and in cases hotter ammo will penetrate more than standard loadings in 9mm.

I did my graduate thesis on the development of the small caliber high velocity concept myself, so I am no stranger to the study of ballistics.

Oh and what you do does sound fun good sir. I get stuck lecturing all day. There are times I wish I had more hands on fun time with the technology.

 

[Robenstein]

Also did find more than one 125 grain loading in 357 mag that showed greater penetration than standard 9mm loadings.

Now with variations in gelatin, guns, and consistency in ammo, I will say that your mileage may vary. I can only go by published data as I don't have the equipment to do these things myself at home. I just trust the geeks at the FBI and companies to do the job right.

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: Robster
There's more to a law enforcement round than just the wound pattern results in gel tests. The lighter 9mm round will never have the penetration power of a heavier, higher pressure round--you can't defy the law of physics. Cops need the ability to penetrate barriers (car doors, windows etc.) and then stop the target. I've seen 9mm fail miserably in this regard in actual shooting incidents--the .40 is better at barrier penetration--the physics of that round make it so.


If the physics of the larger round are so preferable, why not give them something chambered in S&W .500 magnum, or .50 AE??
It's because shot placement counts. Power is nothing without control.


In LE you have to be careful with over penetration. Currently the department I work for carries 40 S&W Beretta's. I don't know of many departments in my area that carry 9mm anymore. Most have went to 40 S&W and 45 ACP.

The department I work for is in the process of switching over to Glock 21's and Glock 30's in 45 ACP. It is true some capacity is lost but the 45 ACP in a duty sized weapon is a very sweet, soft shooter. Another advantage is several neighboring departments also use the 45 ACP. This can cut down on ammo costs because we can buy in larger quantities and we will have the ability to share ammo in the event of a mutual aid type crisis.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: klt1986


In LE you have to be careful with over penetration. Currently the department I work for carries 40 S&W Beretta's. I don't know of many departments in my area that carry 9mm anymore. Most have went to 40 S&W and 45 ACP.

The department I work for is in the process of switching over to Glock 21's and Glock 30's in 45 ACP. It is true some capacity is lost but the 45 ACP in a duty sized weapon is a very sweet, soft shooter. Another advantage is several neighboring departments also use the 45 ACP. This can cut down on ammo costs because we can buy in larger quantities and we will have the ability to share ammo in the event of a mutual aid type crisis.
Overpenetration is almost always overblown. Most rounds fired by police MISS the intended target yet everyone focuses on perp pass throughs. .45 ACP is always going to be more expensive than 9mm, and offer nothing except larger guns that some officers aren't comfortable with, or lower capacity. The sharing ammo thing is laughable. Has that ever happened before in the entire USA? If you're envisioning a hellish scenario like that you don't need new handgun calibers you need carbines.

 

[Robenstein]

A high capacity 45acp which is a large framed weapon may indeed be a terrible choice for small handed officers such as women. I mean that is one of the reasons the FBI ditched the S&W 3rd generation 10mm pistols and it spurred the development of the 40 S&W. Created a softer shooting gun with a more comfortable grip.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I hate to double-post, but I wanted to bring this question up again, as it seems like it got missed prior.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I own 9mm handguns and nothing larger yet, but I always wonder about the statement that "modern ballistics makes the 9mm as effective as a .40". Are "modern ballistics" not also being applied to the .40, making it as effective as a larger caliber (like a .45)? And are "modern ballistics" not also being applied to the .45, making it as effective as a .50?

I'm sure there's a point where you receive diminishing returns on your investment (in terms of optimizing a caliber), but it seems that the argument for the 9mm leaves open the possibility of applying the same new technology to the larger calibers.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

A little about me...I'm a quasi balistics expert, have shot more balistics gel than I can count, have been to tons of balistics workshops including shooting through auto glass and barriers. I've spent hundreds, perhaps thousand of hours reading all the latest balistics research. I also shoot a TON and see what works, and what doesn't. I spent $30k dollars last year on ammo alone... Basically I'm a guy that takes self defense, guns, ammo, and balistics very seriously and I usually get it right when I take the time to comment on these issues.

"They made it for him special."
"It's an 88 magnum."

 

[Robenstein]

Modern ballistics created the 40 S&W as a compromise between the 9mm parabellum and the 10mm. The now defunct 41 Action Express was a similar experiment to get more punch out of a 40 cal bullet that could be used on 9mm platform guns without going to a longer and even higher pressure round like the 10mm which required platforms to be heavily modified more often than not resulting in poor ergonomics and a harsh recoiling gun for small handed operators.

 

[Astro14]

I'm with Jason - with the same technology (expansion/design), the heavier, larger bullet at the same velocity has proportionally greater impact energy and therefor is more effective.

Now, shot placement, weapon control and recoil all matter too. So, caliber selection has to take all those into account...as well as cost if you're going to train effectively. So, I am not suggesting that everyone should carry a .45 ACP, or even a .40 S&W. The caliber selection should include consideration of the shooter's needs, including weapon size, recoil, and capacity.

In my case, my Glock 20 has good capacity (15+1), fits my hand, and even with hot loads (Buffalo Bore), I find the recoil quite manageable. My duty weapon, an H&K USP compact in .40 S&W, has a moderate amount of recoil and muzzle flip, but I've trained with it and my shot placement with it is good....but the decision to give up a couple rounds of capacity to get the larger Federal LE 180 Gr with a .40 isn't mine...it's departmental...and I own several 9mm pistols as well....so, I am not biased in favor of one caliber over another, I am simply saying that selecting the caliber for a particular application is a complex consideration of multiple factors.

But looking solely at projectiles, and keeping all other factors equal, the idea that the lower recoil, lighter, lower energy bullet is just as effective as the larger, heavier higher energy bullet simply isn't supported by physics, or common sense...

 

[Robenstein]

Well we are focusing on penetration, energy, expansion. However we have to remember one thing...there is likely a point where a well placed shot to the torso is going to shut you down fast...after that point any extra energy is "overkill".

So it is not just the characteristics of the cartridge we need to remember, it is the target also. For instance a hot 45ACP with a good bonded jacketed hollow point is going to shut me down if I am hit properly and it is going to do it very fast and effectively. Now shooting me with a more powerful 44 Magnum with a good JHP round with much more energy is going to simply to it with extreme prejudice when it explodes my heart in a slightly more extreme fashion.

 

[hatt]

Energy is similar between all the service calibers. All very low. The damage done by a slightly bigger bullet isn't going to have a lot of impact on a 200 lb hunk of flesh and bones. Even if a slightly larger diameter bullet nicked an artery a smaller bullet wouldn't that a very slow process. A perfect hit to the heart means at least 10 seconds of absolutely no physical reason the guy doesn't keep attacking you. Old bullets failed to penetrate deeply enough to get to paydirt and the perp decided to keep fighting. Once you make a bullet that expands a little and penetrates deep there's not much more you can do. Little deer run off after perfect hits with 300 mags. No magic possible with weak handgun rounds.

 

[L_Sludger]

If penetration's all you care for get a tokarev 7.62x25mm. Some of those milsurp ball rounds will reliably pierce kevlar.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
If penetration's all you care for get a tokarev 7.62x25mm. Some of those milsurp ball rounds will reliably pierce kevlar.
Who said that?

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
If penetration's all you care for get a tokarev 7.62x25mm. Some of those milsurp ball rounds will reliably pierce kevlar.
Who said that?

you don't believe me?

here, a video

happy?

 

[Robster]

Well stated. . . .my point exactly. I also own 9mm and .40, .357 SIG etc.. . . if barriers / heavy clothing / armor aren't an issue, they all have the potential to stop a threat if placement is correct. Throw in a few variables and the inequality of the energy on target becomes more pronounced.



Originally Posted By: Astro14
I'm with Jason - with the same technology (expansion/design), the heavier, larger bullet at the same velocity has proportionally greater impact energy and therefor is more effective.

Now, shot placement, weapon control and recoil all matter too. So, caliber selection has to take all those into account...as well as cost if you're going to train effectively. So, I am not suggesting that everyone should carry a .45 ACP, or even a .40 S&W. The caliber selection should include consideration of the shooter's needs, including weapon size, recoil, and capacity.

In my case, my Glock 20 has good capacity (15+1), fits my hand, and even with hot loads (Buffalo Bore), I find the recoil quite manageable. My duty weapon, an H&K USP compact in .40 S&W, has a moderate amount of recoil and muzzle flip, but I've trained with it and my shot placement with it is good....but the decision to give up a couple rounds of capacity to get the larger Federal LE 180 Gr with a .40 isn't mine...it's departmental...and I own several 9mm pistols as well....so, I am not biased in favor of one caliber over another, I am simply saying that selecting the caliber for a particular application is a complex consideration of multiple factors.

But looking solely at projectiles, and keeping all other factors equal, the idea that the lower recoil, lighter, lower energy bullet is just as effective as the larger, heavier higher energy bullet simply isn't supported by physics, or common sense...

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: klt1986


In LE you have to be careful with over penetration. Currently the department I work for carries 40 S&W Beretta's. I don't know of many departments in my area that carry 9mm anymore. Most have went to 40 S&W and 45 ACP.

The department I work for is in the process of switching over to Glock 21's and Glock 30's in 45 ACP. It is true some capacity is lost but the 45 ACP in a duty sized weapon is a very sweet, soft shooter. Another advantage is several neighboring departments also use the 45 ACP. This can cut down on ammo costs because we can buy in larger quantities and we will have the ability to share ammo in the event of a mutual aid type crisis.
Overpenetration is almost always overblown. Most rounds fired by police MISS the intended target yet everyone focuses on perp pass throughs. .45 ACP is always going to be more expensive than 9mm, and offer nothing except larger guns that some officers aren't comfortable with, or lower capacity. The sharing ammo thing is laughable. Has that ever happened before in the entire USA? If you're envisioning a hellish scenario like that you don't need new handgun calibers you need carbines.


Fortunately I have never been in a situation where I was close to running out of ammo before and hope I never am. Personally, I like to prepare for the unexpected.

In my area different situations may arise that require us to respond to neighboring jurisdictions....such as a school shooting or a bank robbery...just to name a couple. It is certainly an advantage if the officers carry the same caliber weapons. So, to answer your question, yes officers have used ammo from fallen/wounded officers before. Does it happen often? Fortunately it does not. Just because something is highly unlikely to happen or very unlikely to happen doesn't mean you don't take steps to prepare for it.

 

[Mystic]

In the end you fight with whatever you have. If somebody breaks into your home and threatens you it does not matter if you have a 9mm, or a .45, or .357, or whatever. You use whatever you have.

With the technology they have today with expanding bullets I don't think you necessarily need a .45 or a .357 to defend yourself. Although it certainly helps loading your gun with the high tech rounds that are available. I have both a 9mm S&W M&P semi-auto and a .40 cal Glock. I bought special self-defense rounds for the 9mm M&P at Bass Pro Shop and I keep that gun loaded with those rounds except when I am target practicing. I do find the S&W 9mm more enjoyable to shoot than the .40 Glock.

A 9mm handgun or a revolver is fine for self-defense. You need to practice and know the laws for self-defense.

Now for the military I have different ideas. The military cannot use the same self-defense ammunition I use so I think the 1911 .45 makes a lot of sense for the military.

 

[spasm3]

You carry what you shoot well. Its better than no gun. I have a .45 but i can't hide it well, so its a house gun. I have a .380 i carry that in summer with shorts. I also keep a ruger 9mm with 17+1 capacity for the car, as i want more than 8 rounds of .45 if i have a flat on the highway. I just bought an s+w mp shield in 9mm for when i want to carry a bit more than .380. My wife keeps the .22 walther with her when i'm not home. Its not an optimal caliber at all but she shoots it well and is better than the caliber you don't carry or don't shoot well.

 

[Mystic]

There is that also. You have to carry depending on the situation. If you have a concealed weapons permit (in some states that are not insane) you have to consider things like concealment and ease of carry. The gun at home can be anything from a 12 gauge shotgun to a revolver, semi-auto, or whatever. But for a carry gun a person is probably not going to be trying to carry a full size 1911 .45 around.

I have shot all kinds of handguns. Revolvers (.38, .357, .44), and semi-autos (.25, 9mm, .40, .45, .38 Super, even .357 semi-auto) and they are all nice, except I think a .44 mag is not really a suitable self-defense weapon. I have shot I think four different .44 magnum handguns and a rifle that could shoot .44 magnum and I have shot everything from .44 cal to high powered .44 magnum rounds in them and I could shoot accurately with some pretty powerful rounds. But for self defense against a human being I would want something that I could shoot more rapidly and with better handling. I don't expect for a Grizzly Bear to be breaking into my house. And even for the bear I would prefer something different-like a high powered rifle.

I think for self-defense in my home the 9mm (with special self-defense rounds) or the .40 cal will be adequate.