Interesting article on 9mm vs ___

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CONCLUSION While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance. Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile. Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.” If you want to know more about FBI test protocols for duty ammo, the premium line law enforcement projectiles the FBI is talking about and what rounds to select for self defence, here is a related article: looserounds.com duty/defense-carry-ammunition-selection
 
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I have a 40 S&W semi automatic 4 inch barrel and man I wish I'd have gotten the same firearm in 9mm due to the large amount of recoil this thing has. I am accurate with it but it's got a very snappy quick recoil that isn't present in 9 mm form.
 
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Agree, My 9mm Springfield XD 3" Sub comp is preferred over my H&K P2000 in .40 format. I feel that I both would stop a person if need be, and the 9 XD is just an easier weapon to fire, and follow up fire.
 
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I ditched my 40 s&w CZ40B and Beretta Cougar. While they worked, they had limited capacity, more recoil, and were more expensive to shoot often. I can see why the 40 S&W was made back in the day when 9mm JHP ammo was not as good and you had 10mm or 45acp as the only alternatives.
 
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Jeez, every cop in New England is armed with .40 Glocks these days. Even the Veteran's Administration Hospital cops carry it. Kinda dopey if you ask me. When even rent-a-Fed-cops at the VA (the bottom feeders, the lowest rung of law enforcement, one level above WalMart shoplifting patrol) are carrying 3 magazines of .40 S&W and one in the weapon, one wonders if these toads aren't a tad over-armed. Nines are a sufficient balance, one would think. If a cop can't put two or four in the center-of-mass with a nine, who wants .40's zinging through the walls and windows? Meanwhile, with .40 S&W every idiotic shooting involves a citizen's death and a multi-million dollar lawsuit. I vote go-Nine.
 
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My conclusion from reading this article is that peace officers need more training. Any one of these law enforcement calibers will do the job with accurate shooting. All the time and money spent analyzing ballistics would be better spent on training in realistic conditions to better prepare the officer for that one day when he draws his weapon.
 
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Shot placement is infinitely more important than caliber. A headshot with a .22 RF is decisively more effective than 4 or 5 misses in 9, 40 or 45.
 
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For a duty weapon, nothing beats a 9mm that is all steel IMHO. A CZ75 for instance is one of the sweetest shooting duty/combat handguns made.
 
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I own 9mm handguns and nothing larger yet, but I always wonder about the statement that "modern ballistics makes the 9mm as effective as a .40". Are "modern ballistics" not also being applied to the .40, making it as effective as a larger caliber (like a .45)? And are "modern ballistics" not also being applied to the .45, making it as effective as a .50? I'm sure there's a point where you receive diminishing returns on your investment (in terms of optimizing a caliber), but it seems that the argument for the 9mm leaves open the possibility of applying the same new technology to the larger calibers.
 
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There's more to a law enforcement round than just the wound pattern results in gel tests. The lighter 9mm round will never have the penetration power of a heavier, higher pressure round--you can't defy the law of physics. Cops need the ability to penetrate barriers (car doors, windows etc.) and then stop the target. I've seen 9mm fail miserably in this regard in actual shooting incidents--the .40 is better at barrier penetration--the physics of that round make it so.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robster
There's more to a law enforcement round than just the wound pattern results in gel tests. The lighter 9mm round will never have the penetration power of a heavier, higher pressure round--you can't defy the law of physics. Cops need the ability to penetrate barriers (car doors, windows etc.) and then stop the target. I've seen 9mm fail miserably in this regard in actual shooting incidents--the .40 is better at barrier penetration--the physics of that round make it so.
If the physics of the larger round are so preferable, why not give them something chambered in S&W .500 magnum, or .50 AE?? It's because shot placement counts. Power is nothing without control.
 
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I found it interesting in the article that 9,40, and 45 are all loaded by manufacturers to meet FBI 12-18 inch spec.That seems to be one reason that makes over the counter ammo all perform about the same. I shoot 9mm because I can afford to shoot more and also agree with the articles findings. I also carry .38+p in my .357 mag snubby because I can fire a rapid string of shots much more accurately. It is nice to have the .357 option though for the woods or very cold weather when people ar wearing huge amounts of clothing.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robster
There's more to a law enforcement round than just the wound pattern results in gel tests. The lighter 9mm round will never have the penetration power of a heavier, higher pressure round--you can't defy the law of physics. Cops need the ability to penetrate barriers (car doors, windows etc.) and then stop the target. I've seen 9mm fail miserably in this regard in actual shooting incidents--the .40 is better at barrier penetration--the physics of that round make it so.
You can go to the Speer law enforcement site and look at all the test results for all their duty ammo. Actual results are pretty similar. And oddly, against steel and glass the 9mm(124 +P was the one I looked at) penetrates deeper than the .40 rounds(155, 165, 180) I chose.
 
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9mm loaded to NATO specs is a known over penetrator. It is loaded super hot as well. If you feel 9mm needs more penetration power, simply use +p or +p+ ammo if you gun can handle it. a 9mm round can be a penetrator. That is why the FBI back in the old days issued 38 Super 1911's instead of in 45acp. The 45acp hardball round would not go through barriers well.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
9mm loaded to NATO specs is a known over perpetrator.
9MM NATO is a FMJ ball ammo, of course it over penetrates. Every police agency in the country uses JHP, not full metal jacket.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
It is loaded super hot as well. If you feel 9mm needs more penetration power, simply use +p or +p+ ammo if you gun can handle it.
9MM NATO is actually about halfway between regular pressure and +P. Also, ammo that is loaded to +P+ and sometimes +P, actually penetrates less because the high velocity opens the bullets up to a wider expanded diameter and they slow down quicker, thereby penetrating less.
 
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By loaded I meant powder charge for NATO spec. And if that were true, then 357 SIG JHP would penetrate less than 9mm, as would 357 mag JHP with light bullets.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
And if that were true, then 357 SIG JHP would penetrate less than 9mm, as would 357 mag JHP with light bullets.
What I said about +p+ and some +p 9mm loads actually penetrate less is 100% true. And yes, some 357 sig bullets do penetrate less than some 9mm bullets; it depends on the ammo. 357 magnum with light bullets? I've seen as little as 9 inches of penetration with that combo. The bullets fragment terribly. Fast bullets does not equal deep penetration. A little about me...I'm a quasi balistics expert, have shot more balistics gel than I can count, have been to tons of balistics workshops including shooting through auto glass and barriers. I've spent hundreds, perhaps thousand of hours reading all the latest balistics research. I also shoot a TON and see what works, and what doesn't. I spent $30k dollars last year on ammo alone... Basically I'm a guy that takes self defense, guns, ammo, and balistics very seriously and I usually get it right when I take the time to comment on these issues.
 
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