Integra Type R head running royal purple

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

RP used to claim micro polishing but polishing and anti-wear sounded hypocritical.

I think if RP was as good as they claimed there would be better reviews on this site in particular. No?

Jeff

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
RP used to claim micro polishing but polishing and anti-wear sounded hypocritical.

I think if RP was as good as they claimed there would be better reviews on this site in particular. No?

Jeff


I think the polishing claim is legitimate. If you saw the Mustang camshaft pics you'd see what I mean. They looked polished. Just like this head does. I'm not sure I'd argue that's a good thing as the act of polishing of course removes material

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Note also there is no proof at all that that varnishing hurts anything, may be strictly a cosmetic benefit...



That was my thought, too. Who cares if there is a bit of varnish? Visual inspection isn't too important.


Varnish comes from the oil oxidizing from heat. Also ring coking comes from oil oxidizing and forming carbon in the area of the rings. Causing stuck rings. Have you ever seen a set of pistons where the rings were loaded with carbon? I have. When this happens you get blow by. Then you get exhaust gases and carbon into the oil pan which circlates through the engine. When this happens you get pre mature bearing wear and wear through out the engine. Also an engine with ring coking will deposit large amounts of carbon into the oil filter, then you know you have issues when you inspect the filter.

On the other hand a very clean engine leaves little in the oil filter, even after long OCIs. I often check my filters for deposites and find almost no carbon.

So to say that oil deposited varnish is OK or just cosmedic is not understanding the bigger picture here. If you are getting a lot of varnish then my advise is to switch to a quality synthetic, and those deposites may begine to improve a bit.

Overk1ll has some old pics of carbon deposites that began to be cleaned up some after an oil change using M1. Maybe he can re post those.


I think you mean these:

Yes, when I first started running M1 in the Expedition, this was the result. It eventually tapered off and now I no longer find carbon in the filter. This was certainly from the ring land area and illustrates your point.

 

[bvance554]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I've had a few lower mileage engines look that clean with no special oils. RP is a fine product, just a bit over-hyped as the second coming when many popular synthetics at much lower prices are usually available.

Note also there is no proof at all that that varnishing hurts anything, may be strictly a cosmetic benefit...


I pondered that condition for an evening or two.
Varnish is layer upon layer of hardened elements and it could be argued that it contributes/is part of the anti-wear package.
So then I pondered the cam in block engines of days gone by and compared them with today's high tech vvt systems and cylinder deactivation and I came to the conclusion that in older engines without the gadgets and gizmos are likely unaffected by that varnish layer and quite possibly protected by it to a certain extent.
But in today's engines varnish contributes to shrinking already small oil galleys and can cause the small hydraulic actuators that advance the cam for vvt and the hydraulically arrested valves to malfunction due to that hard build up.
These systems are labour intensive to access and repair/replace so an oil with a proven track record for deposit control is the only logical choice in engines with these feature b
Chev has made it easy with the dexos spec. It either meets it or doesn't,there isn't any meets or exceeds stuff going on.
Chrysler who needs a powerful detergent package for use in the hemi to stay on top of the hemi tick possibility makes an oil company jump through hoops just to get their approval when in all truth dodge should do as the Japanese have and formulate an oil for their specific weaknesses and strengths so the consumer can rest assured the oil was custom made for the conditions present in the hemi engine so the oil offers the best possible protection in the hemi's unique platform.
Like emissions. There must be significant blow-by at start up and the engines programming to get the engine up to operating temp as fast as possible which includes high idle,very lean mix,2 plugs which fire milliseconds apart to combust all the fuel present.
Based on what I know of these motors they need an oil with elevated tbn to combat blow-by gasses and fuel dilution and a ton of moly to reduce the co-efficient of friction making the rotating assembly easier to turn.
Zddp isn't really required at the stock level. The valve springs aren't pushing with enough pressure to necessitate requiring much.
Just spitballing


+1 That is some HD pondering!

 

[tig1]

Overk1ll,

Thanks for posting those pics. As I said, my engines never show carbon deposits in the oil drain pan or the oil filter, even when I have 200K miles and beyond.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Note also there is no proof at all that that varnishing hurts anything, may be strictly a cosmetic benefit...


That was my thought, too. Who cares if there is a bit of varnish? Visual inspection isn't too important.


Varnish comes from the oil oxidizing from heat. Also ring coking comes from oil oxidizing and forming carbon in the area of the rings. Causing stuck rings. Have you ever seen a set of pistons where the rings were loaded with carbon? I have. When this happens you get blow by. Then you get exhaust gases and carbon into the oil pan which circlates through the engine. When this happens you get pre mature bearing wear and wear through out the engine. Also an engine with ring coking will deposit large amounts of carbon into the oil filter, then you know you have issues when you inspect the filter.

On the other hand a very clean engine leaves little in the oil filter, even after long OCIs. I often check my filters for deposites and find almost no carbon.

So to say that oil deposited varnish is OK or just cosmedic is not understanding the bigger picture here. If you are getting a lot of varnish then my advise is to switch to a quality synthetic, and those deposites may begine to improve a bit.

Overk1ll has some old pics of carbon deposites that began to be cleaned up some after an oil change using M1. Maybe he can re post those.

+1. Good post.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Despite the anecdotal evidence there is STILL no real proof that varnish in an engine is anything more than discoloration of the aluminum. It does NOT directly correlate to rings coking or anything else.

I would agree that it is a deposit formed by combustion byproducts but that is about it. If a good oil directly contacts it it generally is cleaned off. If the part is 'dry' then it is subject to vapor deposition of varnish, and no oil will clean it as it remains dry!

We have a very busy high end machine shop in the family and I see torn apart motors all the time. Coking of rings is epidemic, and present in any motor I have ever seen over 100k miles. Even in engines I personally changed the oil in every 3k miles!

Show me some proof and I'm ready to change my mind, but nothing here is convincing me.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


The only thing I find weird about the OP's pictures is that it isn't just clean cast aluminum, but rather it is "shiny", which I recall from the Royal Purple cam pictures as well, they looked "polished" and not like virgin camshafts.


Synerlec is supposed provide a micro level polishing according to the marketing. It makes sense that they would look polished in that case. Maybe it is more of a layering instead of polishing since RP UOAs don't show elevated wear metals.

 

[SteveSRT8]

UOA's are not the end all be all of oil analysis. The fact that something is or is not noted in a UOA is hardly proof of anything.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Read through the thread. Don`t know if I missed it,but which variety of RP was used? The old Synerlec,HPS,XPR,or the common current SN?

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Read through the thread. Don`t know if I missed it,but which variety of RP was used? The old Synerlec,HPS,XPR,or the common current SN?


The guy who posted the picture on facebook never mentioned this.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

If I can find the pics of my evo 4G63 OEM cams that I took out to put in larger cams I will post. After 18k miles with M1 10w30 ep the cam lobes had a polished look to them.

Synerlec I believed was a type of ester?

Jeff

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If I can find the pics of my evo 4G63 OEM cams that I took out to put in larger cams I will post. After 18k miles with M1 10w30 ep the cam lobes had a polished look to them.

Synerlec I believed was a type of ester?

Jeff


Synerlac is a sulfur compound which is why it's not in the SN stuff they make. I know rp uses esters in their oils in various degrees.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
UOA's are not the end all be all of oil analysis. The fact that something is or is not noted in a UOA is hardly proof of anything.


Metal polishing is exactly what DOES show up in UOAs, though.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
UOA's are not the end all be all of oil analysis. The fact that something is or is not noted in a UOA is hardly proof of anything.


Metal polishing is exactly what DOES show up in UOAs, though.


Just depends. Many particles would be way too big to even get noticed by typical UOA. Unless you pay extra for a particle count that's never been included in any I have gotten.

IMO people infer way too much from an oil analysis. It's helpful, but it is easily over and under used/understood.

 

[badtlc]

Polishing by nature doesn't produce large particles.