Timing chains have been around for a long time without stretching issues. I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil. My old Nissan with the KA24 engine had 250k miles on it when I sold it. Original timing chain with no issues. Same for my old 3RZ Toyota with over 200k miles.
Infineum insight to Timing Chain Wear
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Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Timing chains have been around for a long time without stretching issues. I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil. My old Nissan with the KA24 engine had 250k miles on it when I sold it. Original timing chain with no issues. Same for my old 3RZ Toyota with over 200k miles.
Were those engines GDI?
Timing chains have been around for a long time without stretching issues. I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil. My old Nissan with the KA24 engine had 250k miles on it when I sold it. Original timing chain with no issues. Same for my old 3RZ Toyota with over 200k miles.
Were those engines GDI?
Again, GDI engines produce a new type of soot that damages timing chains. Change your oil more often........
Quote
Combined with acids and fuel dilution from incomplete combustion, GDI soot has been found specifically to contribute to accelerated wear on an engine's timing chain, a vitally important component connecting the engine's crankshaft to the camshaft. Also responsible for valve timing, the timing chain's connection must remain precisely accurate. Unchecked chain wear can effectively cause the chain itself to elongate, which negatively alters valve timing, and can lead to major engine damage.
This issue is being addressed within the ongoing development of the proposed GF-6 specification. A new test is being developed that seeks to evaluate a lubricant's ability to help mitigate chain wear, and Lubrizol has been closely involved with that development.
https://passenger.lubrizoladditives360.com/gdi-soot-a-new-challenge/
So bash on GM all you want, but it looks like they are years ahead of API/ILSAC standards....
Quote
Combined with acids and fuel dilution from incomplete combustion, GDI soot has been found specifically to contribute to accelerated wear on an engine's timing chain, a vitally important component connecting the engine's crankshaft to the camshaft. Also responsible for valve timing, the timing chain's connection must remain precisely accurate. Unchecked chain wear can effectively cause the chain itself to elongate, which negatively alters valve timing, and can lead to major engine damage.
This issue is being addressed within the ongoing development of the proposed GF-6 specification. A new test is being developed that seeks to evaluate a lubricant's ability to help mitigate chain wear, and Lubrizol has been closely involved with that development.
https://passenger.lubrizoladditives360.com/gdi-soot-a-new-challenge/
So bash on GM all you want, but it looks like they are years ahead of API/ILSAC standards....
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Timing chains have been around for a long time without stretching issues. I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil. My old Nissan with the KA24 engine had 250k miles on it when I sold it. Original timing chain with no issues. Same for my old 3RZ Toyota with over 200k miles.
Same for my Mazda with over 600k miles. It was a double-row chain driving only one camshaft and zero idlers. Chain design, chain material, and GDI soot are all factors.
Timing chains have been around for a long time without stretching issues. I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil. My old Nissan with the KA24 engine had 250k miles on it when I sold it. Original timing chain with no issues. Same for my old 3RZ Toyota with over 200k miles.
Same for my Mazda with over 600k miles. It was a double-row chain driving only one camshaft and zero idlers. Chain design, chain material, and GDI soot are all factors.
Toyota seems fine with a 10,000 mile OCI (16,000km) in the Direct Injection engines using 0w20. That would be a bold move if they weren't sure.
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Originally Posted by StevieC
I never gave the Asian manufacturers a gold star but there is plenty of them 20 years old still running around when a good portion of American and German cars are no longer. Rust affects all makes/models so that isn't fair.
That's a pretty broad brush you are sweeping with there. Define "good portion"; give a based number, relative to sales from the same year. IE, if Honda sold 200,000 Civics in 2006 and 90% of them are still on the road and BMW sold 20,000 3-series cars, what's the percentage of those still on the road? or is the potential rift in sales and market penetration not being accounted for? I don't see a lot of older Tundra's on the road, am I to assume they all tossed rods and are tires up in the junkyard or is that perhaps more likely due to them being significantly outsold by Ford, Dodge and GM?
And rust most certainly affects makes differently. Toyota's frame debacle with Dana is one example, Mazda's body rust is another. Ford had the shackles rotting off the Explorer, Dodge trucks had the wheel wells rotting out...etc. You couldn't keep a body on the older Toyota pick-ups, despite the powertrain being bulletproof, same with the old Civics.
But I digress. If you truly worshipped at this altar of malarky you'd be running the cheapest API-approved oil on the market in your Toyota and it would go 4 million kilometres. Twice. The oil return holes in the heads wouldn't plug up, the engine would never get sludge, the piston oil drain holes wouldn't plug and cause it to burn oil like.... Oh wait
Toyota has had their own share of engineering whoopsies that transcends their liberal spec'ing of the API low-bar in the users manual. The Million mile van didn't get there because of the Ford WSS spec anymore than the million mile Volvo got there without one. A well engineered engine run on the appropriate fluid will last, a poorly engineered one, even run on the nectar of the gods, won't. Revering the absence of a manufacturer's lubricant approval is silly and misses the point. Toyota has put some excellent powertrains in vehicles designed to be durable and they have lasted. Many other brands have done the same. Whether those brands had manufacturer oil specs or not is irrelevant. Caterpillar and Cummins both have oil approvals, are we to malign them as garbage now too?
At some point logical discussion of engineering practices gives way to brand, or, in this case, ethnic, cheerleading. We've crested that hill.
I never gave the Asian manufacturers a gold star but there is plenty of them 20 years old still running around when a good portion of American and German cars are no longer. Rust affects all makes/models so that isn't fair.
That's a pretty broad brush you are sweeping with there. Define "good portion"; give a based number, relative to sales from the same year. IE, if Honda sold 200,000 Civics in 2006 and 90% of them are still on the road and BMW sold 20,000 3-series cars, what's the percentage of those still on the road? or is the potential rift in sales and market penetration not being accounted for? I don't see a lot of older Tundra's on the road, am I to assume they all tossed rods and are tires up in the junkyard or is that perhaps more likely due to them being significantly outsold by Ford, Dodge and GM?
And rust most certainly affects makes differently. Toyota's frame debacle with Dana is one example, Mazda's body rust is another. Ford had the shackles rotting off the Explorer, Dodge trucks had the wheel wells rotting out...etc. You couldn't keep a body on the older Toyota pick-ups, despite the powertrain being bulletproof, same with the old Civics.
But I digress. If you truly worshipped at this altar of malarky you'd be running the cheapest API-approved oil on the market in your Toyota and it would go 4 million kilometres. Twice. The oil return holes in the heads wouldn't plug up, the engine would never get sludge, the piston oil drain holes wouldn't plug and cause it to burn oil like.... Oh wait
At some point logical discussion of engineering practices gives way to brand, or, in this case, ethnic, cheerleading. We've crested that hill.
Where did I say Toyota was superior? I said "Asian" because all manufacturers have their woes. IMO from what we have fixed and what I see on the road daily it "SEEMS" that Asians seem to last the longest with a lot of older models still running around. I don't see any old german cars running around with the exception of some 1980's BMW's or certain model VW's that were built well. Mercedes definitely is the worst of the German vehicles. That I can tell you from experience fixing tons of them with my dad and the components failing in them shouldn't for a luxury brand.
Why else would people have flocked from other makes to Asian branded vehicles if the value and reliability wasn't there?
I'm going to leave GM alone because they are notorious for failures and we both know it. It's decades and decades long the failures they have had.
Ford I will give them has always had great trucks and SUV's. They couldn't build a small car to save their lives until the partnership with Mazda. Even those had their issues but for the most part were ok. Then there is the Focus DCT nightmare. It's one of the reasons they are getting out of the car market and going toward truck/SUV only because they know they failed.
Then there is Chrysler. Unless you buy something really expensive like you did then the quality is there, The Caravans are good. The rest of what they sell is problematic plagued with problems. Jeep is mixed good/bad. Again what you spend seems to get you decent quality.
My Journey before it was in the accident had multiple sensors fail like the 02, Temperature Senor, Map Sensor, the A/C never worked right and then the compressor failed, and it had 6 recalls on a model they have been selling for years. It had 60,000 miles (100,000km) on it.
NONE of the big 3 will have a good majority of vehicles still on the road after 20 years like the Asian brands seem to do because the quality isn't there. Sure you pay through the nose for this quality because of brand reputation but I would much rather pay more and not have the hassle of needing more repairs or needing to replace major components early. Especially when you rack up as many miles as I do and the vehicle needs to outlast the loan.
Why else would people have flocked from other makes to Asian branded vehicles if the value and reliability wasn't there?
I'm going to leave GM alone because they are notorious for failures and we both know it. It's decades and decades long the failures they have had.
Ford I will give them has always had great trucks and SUV's. They couldn't build a small car to save their lives until the partnership with Mazda. Even those had their issues but for the most part were ok. Then there is the Focus DCT nightmare. It's one of the reasons they are getting out of the car market and going toward truck/SUV only because they know they failed.
Then there is Chrysler. Unless you buy something really expensive like you did then the quality is there, The Caravans are good. The rest of what they sell is problematic plagued with problems. Jeep is mixed good/bad. Again what you spend seems to get you decent quality.
My Journey before it was in the accident had multiple sensors fail like the 02, Temperature Senor, Map Sensor, the A/C never worked right and then the compressor failed, and it had 6 recalls on a model they have been selling for years. It had 60,000 miles (100,000km) on it.
NONE of the big 3 will have a good majority of vehicles still on the road after 20 years like the Asian brands seem to do because the quality isn't there. Sure you pay through the nose for this quality because of brand reputation but I would much rather pay more and not have the hassle of needing more repairs or needing to replace major components early. Especially when you rack up as many miles as I do and the vehicle needs to outlast the loan.
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Where did I say Toyota was superior? I said "Asian" because all manufacturers have their woes. IMO from what we have fixed and what I see on the road daily it "SEEMS" that Asians seem to last the longest with a lot of older models still running around. I don't see any old german cars running around with the exception of some 1980's BMW's or certain model VW's that were built well. Mercedes definitely is the worst of the German vehicles. That I can tell you from experience fixing tons of them with my dad and the components failing in them shouldn't for a luxury brand.
You stated that the Germans were inferior to the Asians because they had their own "uber" oil specs, whilst their Japanese cousins, didn't. I don't think that's an accurate representation of the situation. I don't think the oil specs, presence, or lack thereof, is relevant to that comparison because of the differences in how the vehicles are engineered.
My impression of Euro cars, particularly BMW, is that they are pushing stuff that isn't necessarily mature yet, and thus, isn't properly sorted. So you end up with multiple revisions of part #'s. My M5 had a couple of those like the Camshaft Position sensors and HVAC resistor modules where the replacement was significantly different and several revisions away from the original. There were other things like silly selection of materials which we don't need to get into, but its a design philosophy difference where the car is expected to be serviced regularly and per the manufacturers schedule so that these niggling issues are less prominent. It apparently works in Europe, not so much here.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Why else would people have flocked from other makes to Asian branded vehicles if the value and reliability wasn't there?
They are reliable. but more than that, they are cheap to own. They will handle neglect. That's the allure. A Toyota that needs tires and brakes to get to 200,000Km is far more likely to get to 400,000Km with Average Joe at the wheel than the Mercedes that needs the entire suspension overhauled at 120,000Km and all new air shocks at 200,000Km, which might instead, send it to the wreckers. It could be otherwise mechanically perfect, but get wreckered over the insane cost of that repair. The Toyota won't have that same system, nor would it have stickered for same price or suffered the same level of depreciation and many of the owners lease which results in these cars in the hands of people who can't afford those big repair bills.
My M5 was reliable. It never left me stranded and never broke down. But it was NOT cheap to own. That's why I eventually traded it. At some point, even a car that stickered at the price it did, puts you in a position where dumping thousands into it doesn't make sense, even if that stuff is "maintenance" items. Because that's defined differently on German cars. My sister has replaced the lower control arm assemblies on her 3-series twice now and they are NOT cheap. But the car has been very reliable. Those things are not mutually exclusive. You can have a very reliable money pit, LOL
So her 3'er, well, it doesn't ride like a Corolla or Camry. It's a BMW and drives like one. But there's a cost to that, and that cost is often one that at some point, people are simply unwilling to pay. So far, she has been willing to pay it and so, the car continues to serve her quite well.
Originally Posted by StevieC
I'm going to leave GM alone because they are notorious for failures and we both know it. It's decades and decades long the failures they have had.
Ford I will give them has always had great trucks and SUV's. They couldn't build a small car to save their lives until the partnership with Mazda. Even those had their issues but for the most part were ok. Then there is the Focus DCT nightmare. It's one of the reasons they are getting out of the car market and going toward truck/SUV only because they know they failed.
Then there is Chrysler. Unless you buy something really expensive like you did then the quality is there, The Caravans are good. The rest of what they sell is problematic plagued with problems. Jeep is mixed good/bad. Again what you spend seems to get you decent quality.
NONE of the big 3 will have a good majority of vehicles still on the road after 20 years like the Asian brands seem to do. Because the quality isn't there.
I agree completely that Chrysler is and has been a mixed bag but your last statement can't be true. You know why? The majority of vehicles Ford sells are trucks, and those are their best product and will still be on the road
With Ford reducing their product lineup as you touched on, that's going to be just as true, perhaps even moreso, going forward. Ford focusing on producing fewer models of better vehicles? Of note, we had great service from our Expedition and it is still on the road, being the DD for its new owner at what must be closing in on if not surpassing 400K now. I see it almost every day, as the guy works around the corner from me. My parents still have their 2000, it's in the mid 300's. Another example of a solid vehicle with a bulletproof powertrain. My dad still has his Town Car, same thing there.
I'm not touching the GM comment as I don't think I can address GM fairly. I will say they have made some excellent engines.
Where did I say Toyota was superior? I said "Asian" because all manufacturers have their woes. IMO from what we have fixed and what I see on the road daily it "SEEMS" that Asians seem to last the longest with a lot of older models still running around. I don't see any old german cars running around with the exception of some 1980's BMW's or certain model VW's that were built well. Mercedes definitely is the worst of the German vehicles. That I can tell you from experience fixing tons of them with my dad and the components failing in them shouldn't for a luxury brand.
You stated that the Germans were inferior to the Asians because they had their own "uber" oil specs, whilst their Japanese cousins, didn't. I don't think that's an accurate representation of the situation. I don't think the oil specs, presence, or lack thereof, is relevant to that comparison because of the differences in how the vehicles are engineered.
My impression of Euro cars, particularly BMW, is that they are pushing stuff that isn't necessarily mature yet, and thus, isn't properly sorted. So you end up with multiple revisions of part #'s. My M5 had a couple of those like the Camshaft Position sensors and HVAC resistor modules where the replacement was significantly different and several revisions away from the original. There were other things like silly selection of materials which we don't need to get into, but its a design philosophy difference where the car is expected to be serviced regularly and per the manufacturers schedule so that these niggling issues are less prominent. It apparently works in Europe, not so much here.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Why else would people have flocked from other makes to Asian branded vehicles if the value and reliability wasn't there?
They are reliable. but more than that, they are cheap to own. They will handle neglect. That's the allure. A Toyota that needs tires and brakes to get to 200,000Km is far more likely to get to 400,000Km with Average Joe at the wheel than the Mercedes that needs the entire suspension overhauled at 120,000Km and all new air shocks at 200,000Km, which might instead, send it to the wreckers. It could be otherwise mechanically perfect, but get wreckered over the insane cost of that repair. The Toyota won't have that same system, nor would it have stickered for same price or suffered the same level of depreciation and many of the owners lease which results in these cars in the hands of people who can't afford those big repair bills.
My M5 was reliable. It never left me stranded and never broke down. But it was NOT cheap to own. That's why I eventually traded it. At some point, even a car that stickered at the price it did, puts you in a position where dumping thousands into it doesn't make sense, even if that stuff is "maintenance" items. Because that's defined differently on German cars. My sister has replaced the lower control arm assemblies on her 3-series twice now and they are NOT cheap. But the car has been very reliable. Those things are not mutually exclusive. You can have a very reliable money pit, LOL
So her 3'er, well, it doesn't ride like a Corolla or Camry. It's a BMW and drives like one. But there's a cost to that, and that cost is often one that at some point, people are simply unwilling to pay. So far, she has been willing to pay it and so, the car continues to serve her quite well.
Originally Posted by StevieC
I'm going to leave GM alone because they are notorious for failures and we both know it. It's decades and decades long the failures they have had.
Ford I will give them has always had great trucks and SUV's. They couldn't build a small car to save their lives until the partnership with Mazda. Even those had their issues but for the most part were ok. Then there is the Focus DCT nightmare. It's one of the reasons they are getting out of the car market and going toward truck/SUV only because they know they failed.
Then there is Chrysler. Unless you buy something really expensive like you did then the quality is there, The Caravans are good. The rest of what they sell is problematic plagued with problems. Jeep is mixed good/bad. Again what you spend seems to get you decent quality.
NONE of the big 3 will have a good majority of vehicles still on the road after 20 years like the Asian brands seem to do. Because the quality isn't there.
I agree completely that Chrysler is and has been a mixed bag but your last statement can't be true. You know why? The majority of vehicles Ford sells are trucks, and those are their best product and will still be on the road
I'm not touching the GM comment as I don't think I can address GM fairly. I will say they have made some excellent engines.
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Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by StevieC
NONE of the big 3 will have a good majority of vehicles still on the road after 20 years like the Asian brands seem to do because the quality isn't there. Sure you pay through the nose for this quality because of brand reputation but I would much rather pay more and not have the hassle of needing more repairs or needing to replace major components early. Especially when you rack up as many miles as I do and the vehicle needs to outlast the loan.
Not many people rack up as many miles as airport limo drivers do, and what car do they choose? Seems to me like it's almost exclusively Lincoln Town Cars. And these guys often rack up over 500,000 kms without even touching the original engine.
NONE of the big 3 will have a good majority of vehicles still on the road after 20 years like the Asian brands seem to do because the quality isn't there. Sure you pay through the nose for this quality because of brand reputation but I would much rather pay more and not have the hassle of needing more repairs or needing to replace major components early. Especially when you rack up as many miles as I do and the vehicle needs to outlast the loan.
Not many people rack up as many miles as airport limo drivers do, and what car do they choose? Seems to me like it's almost exclusively Lincoln Town Cars. And these guys often rack up over 500,000 kms without even touching the original engine.
German engineering as of late is inferior. Do they have some good models? Sure. Doesn't any OEM? Look at the market-share, it's predominately Asian based. Look at the quality awards. Asian's have or are climbing to the top. Germans USED to have great technology that was first rate and blew the competition out of the water. Not any longer. Now it's just more expensive stuff that will most likey break after 5 years of ownership. Again there are still some good models. Audi has a few for example which is weird considering VW is a bit of a disaster for reliability as of late.
When I made the comment about the Big 3 I should have excluded Ford's truck / SUV segment. That I will agree on. They have done that well and yes those models will be on the road in 20 years. Their Ecoboost is excellent technology.
Chrysler has the engineering if they would just stop cheapening out on things like suspension, brakes, sensor, window regulators and the like they might actually end up at the top at least for the Big-3. They haven't mucked with their bread/butter which is the Dodge Caravan and it shows. It outsells the Pacifica and it is the best selling Minivan in Canada. Plus it's really old in the tooth the design with no update since 2012!
I only bought a Toyota Highlander because it fit my needs and I needed something reliable. I also considered a Ford Edge when I was out shopping but went with the Toyota because of some of the features it had that the Edge didn't and also where the resale value will be later on if I decide to trade it in for some reason.
When I made the comment about the Big 3 I should have excluded Ford's truck / SUV segment. That I will agree on. They have done that well and yes those models will be on the road in 20 years. Their Ecoboost is excellent technology.
Chrysler has the engineering if they would just stop cheapening out on things like suspension, brakes, sensor, window regulators and the like they might actually end up at the top at least for the Big-3. They haven't mucked with their bread/butter which is the Dodge Caravan and it shows. It outsells the Pacifica and it is the best selling Minivan in Canada. Plus it's really old in the tooth the design with no update since 2012!
I only bought a Toyota Highlander because it fit my needs and I needed something reliable. I also considered a Ford Edge when I was out shopping but went with the Toyota because of some of the features it had that the Edge didn't and also where the resale value will be later on if I decide to trade it in for some reason.
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Originally Posted by StevieC
German engineering as of late is inferior. Do they have some good models? Sure. Doesn't any OEM? Look at the market-share, it's predominately Asian based. Look at the quality awards. Asian's have or are climbing to the top. Germans USED to have great technology that was first rate and blew the competition out of the water. Not any longer. Now it's just more expensive stuff that will most likey break after 5 years of ownership. Again there are still some good models. Audi has a few for example which is weird considering VW is a bit of a disaster for reliability as of late.
Somebody doesn't like German cars
Anyways, my point was that the presence, or lack thereof, of a manufacturer-specific oil spec isn't a proxy for overall quality. It's simply assurance by the manufacturer that controls that align with their parameters are in place to define the minimum level of quality for the lubricant used in their product. Ford's WSS specs are pretty easy targets but do go above and beyond the API minimum in a number of categories. Chrysler requires a fleet test to validate performance. Pretty simple. My gripe with DEXOS isn't so much the performance parameters but rather the royalty mechanism making it a money grab. GM used to have the "Corvette" spec which was more akin to Porsche A40, verifying performance for a specific high performance application, which made sense. Just like Honda's turbo spec as well. If Toyota came out with an engine that required a lubricant that was a bit better than your plain Jane API product I'd expect them to come up with a spec for it too. It's logical to want that extra level of control and sometimes necessary.
German engineering as of late is inferior. Do they have some good models? Sure. Doesn't any OEM? Look at the market-share, it's predominately Asian based. Look at the quality awards. Asian's have or are climbing to the top. Germans USED to have great technology that was first rate and blew the competition out of the water. Not any longer. Now it's just more expensive stuff that will most likey break after 5 years of ownership. Again there are still some good models. Audi has a few for example which is weird considering VW is a bit of a disaster for reliability as of late.
Somebody doesn't like German cars
Anyways, my point was that the presence, or lack thereof, of a manufacturer-specific oil spec isn't a proxy for overall quality. It's simply assurance by the manufacturer that controls that align with their parameters are in place to define the minimum level of quality for the lubricant used in their product. Ford's WSS specs are pretty easy targets but do go above and beyond the API minimum in a number of categories. Chrysler requires a fleet test to validate performance. Pretty simple. My gripe with DEXOS isn't so much the performance parameters but rather the royalty mechanism making it a money grab. GM used to have the "Corvette" spec which was more akin to Porsche A40, verifying performance for a specific high performance application, which made sense. Just like Honda's turbo spec as well. If Toyota came out with an engine that required a lubricant that was a bit better than your plain Jane API product I'd expect them to come up with a spec for it too. It's logical to want that extra level of control and sometimes necessary.
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil.
Same chains, more wear today. Thinner oils, longer OCI's and particulates, which are rather damaging.
If you have a vehicle with known chain issues, change oil more frequently, use a high quality synthetic and consider your viscosity requirements carefully. If you are in Phoenix, step it up a grade or two.
I tend to believe that timing chain design is the source of the wear problem, not oil.
Same chains, more wear today. Thinner oils, longer OCI's and particulates, which are rather damaging.
If you have a vehicle with known chain issues, change oil more frequently, use a high quality synthetic and consider your viscosity requirements carefully. If you are in Phoenix, step it up a grade or two.
The manufacturers had sludge monsters and then demanded oil companies to meet a spec that remedied the problem. This is poor engineering before the oil was there to meet the demand instead of going to oil companies and telling them what they needed and working together.
And no I can't stand German cars. Most models (not all) are pathetic in their reliability. I will give you they have great handling and driving dynamic. Well that is until 5 years passes and they need all sorts of work and special scan tools. I will take an older 1980's or early 1990's BMW or an old Mercedes diesel or the old mechanical fuel injection models from VW any day though. When they USED to over engineer and the quality was first rate.
Now it's about status and not fine quality engineering. I would much rather a boring Lexus with it's ***** grill and know it's not going to break the bank in 5 years.
And no I can't stand German cars. Most models (not all) are pathetic in their reliability. I will give you they have great handling and driving dynamic. Well that is until 5 years passes and they need all sorts of work and special scan tools. I will take an older 1980's or early 1990's BMW or an old Mercedes diesel or the old mechanical fuel injection models from VW any day though. When they USED to over engineer and the quality was first rate.
Now it's about status and not fine quality engineering. I would much rather a boring Lexus with it's ***** grill and know it's not going to break the bank in 5 years.
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Originally Posted by StevieC
The manufacturers had sludge monsters and then demanded oil companies to meet a spec that remedied the problem. This is poor engineering before the oil was there to meet the demand instead of going to oil companies and telling them what they needed and working together.
That's not an accurate representation and you know it. The Euro manufacturers were moving toward longer and longer intervals for convenience, resource conservation and to coincide with fixed service intervals (Service A Service B). It became apparent that one couldn't just spec a grade and be safe, so they incorporated extended drains into their testing standards, the easiest to identify being BMW's Long Life spec, which started with LL-98. These specs were developed WITH the oil manufacturers, so there were products available, just not readily OTS here in North America.
But of course folks this side of the pond didn't adhere to that requirement so you had Castrol GTX 5w30 being tossed in your BMW 318 and run for 20,000Km when it wasn't suitable for it and the result was predictable. We even had VW dealers using Castrol "Syntec" 5w30 in VW long life applications, but the API not ACEA version with the long-life spec and the results were also not good.
The engines weren't sludge monsters anymore than any other engine, save Toyota's actual sludge monster. It's the factory interval that was ONLY suitable with a spec lubricant that was the issue. And that wasn't followed. That's why the same vehicles had no problems in Europe where the proper lubricants were used.
Originally Posted by StevieC
And no I can't stand German cars. Most models (not all) are pathetic in their reliability. I will give you they have great handling and driving dynamic. Well that is until 5 years passes and they need all sorts of work and special scan tools. Talk about fitting a round peg in a square hole. I will take an old 1980's BMW or an old Mercedes diesel or the old mechanical fuel injection models from VW any day though. When they USED to over engineer and the quality was first rate.
Now it's about status and not fine quality engineering.
That's readily apparent. As I said, I have had no reliability issues from BMW. But they were not cheap cars to own.
The manufacturers had sludge monsters and then demanded oil companies to meet a spec that remedied the problem. This is poor engineering before the oil was there to meet the demand instead of going to oil companies and telling them what they needed and working together.
That's not an accurate representation and you know it. The Euro manufacturers were moving toward longer and longer intervals for convenience, resource conservation and to coincide with fixed service intervals (Service A Service B). It became apparent that one couldn't just spec a grade and be safe, so they incorporated extended drains into their testing standards, the easiest to identify being BMW's Long Life spec, which started with LL-98. These specs were developed WITH the oil manufacturers, so there were products available, just not readily OTS here in North America.
But of course folks this side of the pond didn't adhere to that requirement so you had Castrol GTX 5w30 being tossed in your BMW 318 and run for 20,000Km when it wasn't suitable for it and the result was predictable. We even had VW dealers using Castrol "Syntec" 5w30 in VW long life applications, but the API not ACEA version with the long-life spec and the results were also not good.
The engines weren't sludge monsters anymore than any other engine, save Toyota's actual sludge monster. It's the factory interval that was ONLY suitable with a spec lubricant that was the issue. And that wasn't followed. That's why the same vehicles had no problems in Europe where the proper lubricants were used.
Originally Posted by StevieC
And no I can't stand German cars. Most models (not all) are pathetic in their reliability. I will give you they have great handling and driving dynamic. Well that is until 5 years passes and they need all sorts of work and special scan tools. Talk about fitting a round peg in a square hole. I will take an old 1980's BMW or an old Mercedes diesel or the old mechanical fuel injection models from VW any day though. When they USED to over engineer and the quality was first rate.
Now it's about status and not fine quality engineering.
That's readily apparent. As I said, I have had no reliability issues from BMW. But they were not cheap cars to own.
Yes Toyota owns that one... Again never said they were perfect. Chrysler and their 2.7L was another case of this. Again no OE is perfect. Never claimed there was.
VW and BMW should have been ahead of the curve on sludging to ensure correct oil was used if they were changing the OCI. They should know whats in the market and should have picked an appropriate oil that would meet the specifications. Furthermore they should educate their customers and dealers of the change and it wouldn't have happened.
Out of all the German makes BMW is better than Mercedes for sure and VW. Audi it depends on the model but all of the German manufacturers IMO and it's just my opinion are terrible longer term for quality and reliability given the failures and repairs we have seen.
As an example... My current boss drives a BMW and has driven one for the last 20 years because she likes how it drives, the aggressive look and the service at the dealership. It looks nice, has lots of power, handles well but she trades it in every 5 years because that is when she is done the loan and when they start having problems. I've known her a short time and she has told me about wiring harnesses needing replacement, alternators, sensors, suspension, drive shafts. These are on 5 year or less cars that have usually less than 100K on them when they are traded. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE for a vehicle that is supposed to be a "Luxury" brand. Sorry... "The Ultimate Driving Machine" "Mercedes: The best or nothing"
VW and BMW should have been ahead of the curve on sludging to ensure correct oil was used if they were changing the OCI. They should know whats in the market and should have picked an appropriate oil that would meet the specifications. Furthermore they should educate their customers and dealers of the change and it wouldn't have happened.
Out of all the German makes BMW is better than Mercedes for sure and VW. Audi it depends on the model but all of the German manufacturers IMO and it's just my opinion are terrible longer term for quality and reliability given the failures and repairs we have seen.
As an example... My current boss drives a BMW and has driven one for the last 20 years because she likes how it drives, the aggressive look and the service at the dealership. It looks nice, has lots of power, handles well but she trades it in every 5 years because that is when she is done the loan and when they start having problems. I've known her a short time and she has told me about wiring harnesses needing replacement, alternators, sensors, suspension, drive shafts. These are on 5 year or less cars that have usually less than 100K on them when they are traded. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE for a vehicle that is supposed to be a "Luxury" brand. Sorry... "The Ultimate Driving Machine" "Mercedes: The best or nothing"
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by StevieC
VW and BMW should have been ahead of the curve on sludging to ensure correct oil was used if they were changing the OCI. They should know whats in the market and should have picked an appropriate oil that would meet the specifications. Furthermore they should educate their customers and dealers of the change and it wouldn't have happened.
They were. In Europe. The issue came with North American consumers, quick lubes, and in many cases with VW, even their own dealers, who thought it would be fine to buy the local Syntec product since it was cheaper and the same grade (5w30) as the product from Europe.
The products WERE available here, but not READILY available, and also, since they were only synthetic, that was a huge turn-off for Joe Average at Canadian Tire who wants to buy his Pennzoil conventional, Castrol GTX or Valvoline conventional. I believe initially, primary availability was through the dealerships until places like AutoZone, Canadian Tire, NAPA...etc started stocking the Euro lubes, which they would have otherwise had to order in.
That said, people still don't read their owners manual or know what their car takes. But the quick lube market has at least finally adapted for the most part and is using the correct products. It wasn't that they weren't technically available. They were. And the requirements were clearly laid out in the manuals. But nobody looked at that and that's still the case. Computers showing the appropriate oil specs and products at the Quick Lubes has really helped in that regard.
Recently, a girl who has worked with us, her VW oil light came on. I asked her what oil she was using and she told me 5w30. I asked if she meant a Euro 5w30 and she didn't think so. Her roommate's friend, who was a "great mechanic" was servicing her car and had recently changed the oil. I pulled out her owners manual and showed her what oil spec the car took. We then went and picked up some Mobil 1 0w-40 and put that in. The car was several litres low and I explained to her that there are only a few oils in the shelf that are suitable for that car and it isn't the grade on the bottle that's important, though most she will find will probably be 0w-40, but rather, that they carry that VW spec that's in her manual. She had no idea. But more concerning was that her "knowledgable car friend" also had no idea. This stuff is pervasive. Consumer ignorance is wildly common and it becomes a bigger issue when a car is out of warranty and not being serviced at the dealer, particularly if it is on its 2nd or 3rd owner and perhaps sold from a used car lot.
Regarding your other mention of the BMW maintenance: Some of that is somewhat consistent, albeit premature, with mine. My M5 needed a clutch at 150K and by 180K, it needed a new hangar bearing and entire driveshaft assembly, because BMW doesn't use U-joints, so the entire thing is replaced as a unit. At close to 3 grand. It had already needed all the camshaft position sensors replaced at that point.
VW and BMW should have been ahead of the curve on sludging to ensure correct oil was used if they were changing the OCI. They should know whats in the market and should have picked an appropriate oil that would meet the specifications. Furthermore they should educate their customers and dealers of the change and it wouldn't have happened.
They were. In Europe. The issue came with North American consumers, quick lubes, and in many cases with VW, even their own dealers, who thought it would be fine to buy the local Syntec product since it was cheaper and the same grade (5w30) as the product from Europe.
The products WERE available here, but not READILY available, and also, since they were only synthetic, that was a huge turn-off for Joe Average at Canadian Tire who wants to buy his Pennzoil conventional, Castrol GTX or Valvoline conventional. I believe initially, primary availability was through the dealerships until places like AutoZone, Canadian Tire, NAPA...etc started stocking the Euro lubes, which they would have otherwise had to order in.
That said, people still don't read their owners manual or know what their car takes. But the quick lube market has at least finally adapted for the most part and is using the correct products. It wasn't that they weren't technically available. They were. And the requirements were clearly laid out in the manuals. But nobody looked at that and that's still the case. Computers showing the appropriate oil specs and products at the Quick Lubes has really helped in that regard.
Recently, a girl who has worked with us, her VW oil light came on. I asked her what oil she was using and she told me 5w30. I asked if she meant a Euro 5w30 and she didn't think so. Her roommate's friend, who was a "great mechanic" was servicing her car and had recently changed the oil. I pulled out her owners manual and showed her what oil spec the car took. We then went and picked up some Mobil 1 0w-40 and put that in. The car was several litres low and I explained to her that there are only a few oils in the shelf that are suitable for that car and it isn't the grade on the bottle that's important, though most she will find will probably be 0w-40, but rather, that they carry that VW spec that's in her manual. She had no idea. But more concerning was that her "knowledgable car friend" also had no idea. This stuff is pervasive. Consumer ignorance is wildly common and it becomes a bigger issue when a car is out of warranty and not being serviced at the dealer, particularly if it is on its 2nd or 3rd owner and perhaps sold from a used car lot.
Regarding your other mention of the BMW maintenance: Some of that is somewhat consistent, albeit premature, with mine. My M5 needed a clutch at 150K and by 180K, it needed a new hangar bearing and entire driveshaft assembly, because BMW doesn't use U-joints, so the entire thing is replaced as a unit. At close to 3 grand. It had already needed all the camshaft position sensors replaced at that point.
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Point well taken on expensive stickered cars and their expensive maintenance costs relegating them to the junkyard much earlier than their Asian brethren. This only reaches so far though. Ferrari, Porsche etc seem to get that maintenance and money spent versus say Mercedes, Bentley etc.Strange how that is. I own and like Volkswagen's and Chrysler vehicles. I have had good luck with them but they have required some maintenance. I try to keep the best available oil/filters in them as relatively cheap insurance against catastrophic failure down the road. I won't own a Ford due to personal experience but it's my experience and people that like Ford's will surely disagree. A real tussle will ensue if you get 100 Prior/current Subaru owners in a room. The blood will flow as this make seems to be the most polarizing in my experience.
It's on the OE to educate the dealers and customers.
I didn't even drive off the lot and my sales guy at Toyota made sure I was aware this was a sythentic oil only engine and that it wasn't a marketing gimmick but a requirement of this engine. He said he didn't care where I bought the oil so long as it was ILSAC GF-5 and that it was synthetic 0w20. Never has this happened to me anywhere I bought a vehicle. He knew the page in the manual to flip to.
Then when I was in the Toyota Tech Info site I came across a memo telling the dealers what the differences were between older TGMO and the newer synthetic TGMO 0w20 and why specific engines must be filled with it and not any other dealer bulk oil they might be using.
I think this is why Toyota went with a dual PFI/GDI system was because it's the best "I don't read my owners manual" way of ensuring their car owners are happy and don't come back with gripes of carbon clogged valves running some Jiffy Boob oil special that might not necessarily be what the engine needs to keep the valves clean.
Anyway... It's 9:33pm local time and I'm exhausted from the day so I'm going to leave it here. It has been fun discussing this with you.
I didn't even drive off the lot and my sales guy at Toyota made sure I was aware this was a sythentic oil only engine and that it wasn't a marketing gimmick but a requirement of this engine. He said he didn't care where I bought the oil so long as it was ILSAC GF-5 and that it was synthetic 0w20. Never has this happened to me anywhere I bought a vehicle. He knew the page in the manual to flip to.
Then when I was in the Toyota Tech Info site I came across a memo telling the dealers what the differences were between older TGMO and the newer synthetic TGMO 0w20 and why specific engines must be filled with it and not any other dealer bulk oil they might be using.
I think this is why Toyota went with a dual PFI/GDI system was because it's the best "I don't read my owners manual" way of ensuring their car owners are happy and don't come back with gripes of carbon clogged valves running some Jiffy Boob oil special that might not necessarily be what the engine needs to keep the valves clean.
Anyway... It's 9:33pm local time and I'm exhausted from the day so I'm going to leave it here. It has been fun discussing this with you.
Originally Posted by sloinker
Point well taken on expensive stickered cars and their expensive maintenance costs relegating them to the junkyard much earlier than their Asian brethren. This only reaches so far though. Ferrari, Porsche etc seem to get that maintenance and money spent versus say Mercedes, Bentley etc.Strange how that is. I own and like Volkswagen's and Chrysler vehicles. I have had good luck with them but they have required some maintenance. I try to keep the best available oil/filters in them as relatively cheap insurance against catastrophic failure down the road. I won't own a Ford due to personal experience but it's my experience and people that like Ford's will surely disagree. A real tussle will ensue if you get 100 Prior/current Subaru owners in a room. The blood will flow as this make seems to be the most polarizing in my experience.
Every OE has good and bad models. It's just as of late the Germans seem to be slipping huge from where they once were. Subaru is another one for me. The older models prior to CVT's and Head Gasket failures were great long lasting low maintenance vehicles. While they still have some decent engines there are big problems with head gasket failures, oil soaked spark plug tubes, CVT problems and fuel dilution. Again not everything they make is horrible and the quality is there in some areas but lacking in alot of others compared to yester year.
And before any Subaru defender gets on my case. I have a friend I grew up with and their family own/operate 2 dealerships. Even they steer their really good customers away from certain models. What does that say?
Point well taken on expensive stickered cars and their expensive maintenance costs relegating them to the junkyard much earlier than their Asian brethren. This only reaches so far though. Ferrari, Porsche etc seem to get that maintenance and money spent versus say Mercedes, Bentley etc.Strange how that is. I own and like Volkswagen's and Chrysler vehicles. I have had good luck with them but they have required some maintenance. I try to keep the best available oil/filters in them as relatively cheap insurance against catastrophic failure down the road. I won't own a Ford due to personal experience but it's my experience and people that like Ford's will surely disagree. A real tussle will ensue if you get 100 Prior/current Subaru owners in a room. The blood will flow as this make seems to be the most polarizing in my experience.
Every OE has good and bad models. It's just as of late the Germans seem to be slipping huge from where they once were. Subaru is another one for me. The older models prior to CVT's and Head Gasket failures were great long lasting low maintenance vehicles. While they still have some decent engines there are big problems with head gasket failures, oil soaked spark plug tubes, CVT problems and fuel dilution. Again not everything they make is horrible and the quality is there in some areas but lacking in alot of others compared to yester year.
And before any Subaru defender gets on my case. I have a friend I grew up with and their family own/operate 2 dealerships. Even they steer their really good customers away from certain models. What does that say?
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by sloinker
Point well taken on expensive stickered cars and their expensive maintenance costs relegating them to the junkyard much earlier than their Asian brethren. This only reaches so far though. Ferrari, Porsche etc seem to get that maintenance and money spent versus say Mercedes, Bentley etc.Strange how that is. I own and like Volkswagen's and Chrysler vehicles. I have had good luck with them but they have required some maintenance. I try to keep the best available oil/filters in them as relatively cheap insurance against catastrophic failure down the road. I won't own a Ford due to personal experience but it's my experience and people that like Ford's will surely disagree. A real tussle will ensue if you get 100 Prior/current Subaru owners in a room. The blood will flow as this make seems to be the most polarizing in my experience.
I think those cars generally hold their resale much better than a Benz/Audi/Bimmer and are less viable as a DD, so they don't attract the same audience. The kid that pics up the 7 year old 3'er on a high interest loan wasn't cross-shopping that with a Lamborghini
It's a different market.
Point well taken on expensive stickered cars and their expensive maintenance costs relegating them to the junkyard much earlier than their Asian brethren. This only reaches so far though. Ferrari, Porsche etc seem to get that maintenance and money spent versus say Mercedes, Bentley etc.Strange how that is. I own and like Volkswagen's and Chrysler vehicles. I have had good luck with them but they have required some maintenance. I try to keep the best available oil/filters in them as relatively cheap insurance against catastrophic failure down the road. I won't own a Ford due to personal experience but it's my experience and people that like Ford's will surely disagree. A real tussle will ensue if you get 100 Prior/current Subaru owners in a room. The blood will flow as this make seems to be the most polarizing in my experience.
I think those cars generally hold their resale much better than a Benz/Audi/Bimmer and are less viable as a DD, so they don't attract the same audience. The kid that pics up the 7 year old 3'er on a high interest loan wasn't cross-shopping that with a Lamborghini
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