Inefficiency of Automotive Transportation

[PandaBear]

All gasoline and diesel in transportation eventually turn into heat, that's a fact. What matters is how much it accomplish for the driver before it turns into heat.

I disagree with this kind of analysis. Your goal is to get from point A to point B with the least amount of energy. If you reduce your vehicle's weight it would reduce the amount of energy, even if the percentage stays the same. If you improve your efficiency but ended up spending more because your vehicle is getting heavier or wider and taller, you are still using more energy.

You can have a waterfall powered car spinning its axles and wheels but can't move anywhere, and get 80% turbine to tire efficiency, but it does not go as a car.

You can probably spend 2x as much time going your distance and get 3x as much efficiency by reducing the aerodynamic loss, but you will not be happy and your trip may not be worth it in the end, thus a waste of a trip.

 

[JeffKeryk]

But there are many people that do worry. Just look at the “stop oil” movement. They block major highways, cause massive traffic jams, and best of all, cause extra emissions with their antics.

Without oil, the whole world economy and civilization will collapse. Personal transportation is but a small fraction of oil consumption.
So to advocate against oil, is to advocate for human poverty and suffering.

Perhaps we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket?

In business, we speak of the dangers of a SPOF. Single point of failure.

 

[KrisZ]

Perhaps we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket?

In business, we speak of the dangers of a SPOF. Single point of failure.

There aren’t any viable “baskets” though, with the exception of nuclear.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Perhaps we can set up a network of these. They look efficient - KE is turned to PE then returned to KE.

 

[JeffKeryk]

There aren’t any viable “baskets” though, with the exception of nuclear.

Biomass, Geothermal, Hydro, Wind, Solar, Hydrogen and as you say, Nuclear.

Diablo Canyon in California is leveraging DOE's Civil Nuclear Credit program to fund the plant's life extension. There's those dang subsidies again...

Who the heck knows where energy sources end up? R&D and exploration will provide the answers.
It may be dumb, but I always wondered why we couldn't harness the immense power of the ocean tides, a form of hydropower. Others may chime in with their thoughts.

Tidal power.

Good conversation....

 

[SC Maintenance]

Cheap fossil fuels aren't a requirement for civilization, lots of civilizations have been around in a few millennia before cheap oil was available. The middle east would've been just some folks grazing goats, and making a simple living for the last 90 years, if the oil wasn't there....
My opinion is, we could enter the nuclear/renewables/biofuels age pretty painlessly while maintaining or even increasing our standard of living. Most of the technology is here and fairly mature already and we in North America have all the resources, technology, and wealth we need to make the transition. We will still need some oil for quite a while, but throttling down the use of fossil fuels where an alternative is available would be a good idea. From my limited POV, filling the air with CO2 and methane, just to make more and more stuff to put into the dump, given what we do know about climate changes so far, seems to be a bad idea.

So go off and do it. Just like Standard oil did in 1882. If your successful you will be rich beyond imagine - just like John D Rockefeler.

Or are you waiting for govco to mandate and pay for it?

 

[KrisZ]

Biomass, Geothermal, Hydro, Wind, Solar, Hydrogen and as you say, Nuclear.

Diablo Canyon in California is leveraging DOE's Civil Nuclear Credit program to fund the plant's life extension. There's those dang subsidies again...

Who the heck knows where energy sources end up? R&D and exploration will provide the answers.
It may be dumb, but I always wondered why we couldn't harness the immense power of the ocean tides, a form of hydropower. Others may chime in with their thoughts.

Tidal power.

Good conversation....

None of them, with the exception of nukes, are scalable and only work in specific regions/climates. And they still require large quantities of petrochemicals, heavy mining, take large amounts of land that could be used for farming, or don't produce reliable power.

We should pursue other sources of energy, I agree with that, but the current policies simply do not make sense, like subsidizing solar panels in Canada and Europe, places where sunshine is not exactly strong or long enough during the day.

 

[MrQuackers]

Time is a scarce commodity.

 

[Kurtatron]

For 9 years I rode my bike to work 4 out of 5 days a week. Cycling is imo the best way to travel < 10 miles. It saves money, combines exercise and commute, and is less stressful than driving (unless not safe).

But then I moved to the South East US, where there are barely even any sidewalks. I would bike if I could, but for some reason the south does not value alternative forms of driving.

So now I am forced to drive to work like everyone else. I miss biking so much. My
Health is declining, and I’m spending more money on transportation. Sigh.

Also, Cycling is one of the most thermally efficient forms of transportation there is. Calorie for calorie, a bicyclist rides at about 350 miles per gallon.

 

[JHZR2]

i don't know which STLE book you read since you didn't identify it but you have to be careful with both the STLE and SAE publications these days since they are pushing the latest rabbit- down-the-hole technologies based on the latest fairy tale ideologies.

And yes, I am a member of the STLE and other technology groups.

That may be true but from a thermodynamic perspective, the outlook isn’t great. Especially when you consider well to wheels.

 

[MolaKule]

That may be true but from a thermodynamic perspective, the outlook isn’t great. Especially when you consider well to wheels.

True, but in Thermodynamics the principles of physics rules. There is only so much juice you can squeeze out of an Orange and that holds for fuel to mechanical conversion as well.

I won't say we haven't squeezed out all of the Thermodynamics ICE juice possible, but I think we're getting down to the last few drops.

I mean, we have not only improved the ICE, but have developed lower viscosity oils, improved body aerodynamics, improved engine control algorithms, more efficient tires, etc., so one has to consider the total vehicle system when speaking of efficiency.

 

[4WD]

For 9 years I rode my bike to work 4 out of 5 days a week. Cycling is imo the best way to travel < 10 miles. It saves money, combines exercise and commute, and is less stressful than driving (unless not safe).

But then I moved to the South East US, where there are barely even any sidewalks. I would bike if I could, but for some reason the south does not value alternative forms of driving.

So now I am forced to drive to work like everyone else. I miss biking so much. My
Health is declining, and I’m spending more money on transportation. Sigh.

Also, Cycling is one of the most thermally efficient forms of transportation there is. Calorie for calorie, a bicyclist rides at about 350 miles per gallon.

Last winter they spent a fortune building two sidewalks from city limit to city limit. Very intrusive as well bcs the entrance to dozens of businesses were broke out - and then new ones formed and poured - new curb corners with ramps … Oh, and one lane traffic for several weeks …

I have seen 3 people walk on them - 2 looked foreign …
Even the kids don’t ride bikes here anymore - they are bused or the parents haul them …

 

[Kurtatron]

Last winter they spent a fortune building two sidewalks from city limit to city limit. Very intrusive as well bcs the entrance to dozens of businesses were broke out - and then new ones formed and poured - new curb corners with ramps … Oh, and one lane traffic for several weeks …

I have seen 3 people walk on them - 2 looked foreign …
Even the kids don’t ride bikes here anymore - they are bused or the parents haul them …

When I was a kid, (this is gonna make me sound old) most kids walked to school. I remember the morning crowd of kids walking in from the different directions. I kind of miss those days.

it’s true most people won’t walk or bike if sidewalks were installed, but I still wish our cities were more like Amsterdam, where biking as a means of transport is huge. People bike there in cold snowy winters, routinely.

 

[4WD]

When I was a kid, (this is gonna make me sound old) most kids walked to school. I remember the morning crowd of kids walking in from the different directions. I kind of miss those days.

it’s true most people won’t walk or bike if sidewalks were installed, but I still wish our cities were more like Amsterdam, where biking as a means of transport is huge. People bike there in cold snowy winters, routinely.

I certainly walked and rode bikes.
The bright side for me on the sidewalk project is these guys were darn good and had a good winter not being in Minnesota. The entrance to all my typical stores are wider and smoother now …

 

[erch]

Well I bet most of you saw Roger Rabbit and didnt think twice about that it was based on a true story. The story of National City Lines was how GM, Firestone, Standard Oil, Mack Truck, and others collaborated to buy up all the local transit systems and inter-urbans in the US and then dismantle them.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...-los-angeles-great-american-streetcar-scandal

 

[Cujet]

Well to wheel 'ain't' as bad as people think, and nowhere near as bad as it used to be. Especially with diesel engines and quality hybrids.

However, it is beyond clear that we need better batteries for personal transportation. Unfortunately, electrochemical energy storage has finite limits, and we can't change the laws of physics.

We will refine personal transportation into acceptable configurations. The port injected V8 pickup truck or sedan is ideal

 

[ATex7239]

Efficiency is greatly over shadowed by excessiveness and over consumption.

I know gobs of people who commute daily in gas guzzlers like SUVs and trucks (but have nothing to tow/haul) then go home to their +3000 sq ft two story house with two AC units cause one won’t even be able to keep it cool. Meanwhile they only have one or two little kids and could get by just fine without consuming so much. But God forbid they are seen driving a car/minivan and don’t live in a mini-mansion - gotta keep up with the Joneses.

 

[burbguy82]

Honestly there is probably nothing better for the earth than just living like some tribes do. Just walk everywhere and make do with natural things. I do like vehicles though and the convenience they offer has some merit to help offset the poor energy usage.

well sure, but modern society does not allow that to be the case. imagine how much energy is used for us to be on this site.

 

[KEVINK0000]

I used to full time on a motorcycle, 4 seasons. Lots of miles. When I would drive the family car ‘89 Taurus, then a ‘94 Camry, I was aware of how inefficient a car was. Everything took much more energy. It was palpable, and not enjoyable. I still only enjoy driving my RX8, even my wife’s 3 series seems big. I understand what the OP and others are saying. I don’t know how people full time in an SUV, and I own an Excursion.
Would love to see Musk build an ultra lightweight and efficient ICE vehicle for the masses like a popular sized crossover. Forget the 5000 lb electric car for a while.

 

[barryh]

Your goal is to get from point A to point B with the least amount of energy. If you reduce your vehicle's weight it would reduce the amount of energy, even if the percentage stays the same. If you improve your efficiency but ended up spending more because your vehicle is getting heavier or wider and taller, you are still using more energy.

As personal transport continues to get bigger and heavier it works against all other attempts to reduce emissions. Lets ne honest and admit that the many who chose to transport themselves in a 6000lb SUV do it for reasons of fashion and image rather than utility. It doesn't matter if the motive source is EV or ICE, it's still produces excessive emissions in manufacture and use. Until we can get past this macho image thing, then personal transport will be a lot less efficient than it could be. Instead of positively encouraging SUV's through tax exemption, a sane policy would be to make transport taxation proportional to vehicle weight.