Increased oil temperatures and bearing failure
- Thread starter kos
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: kos
Does anyone know at what the approximate temperature 10w30 oil would have to reach to cause extremely premature bearing failure?
Depends on the oil - but seems to me in such a scenario in a street car the oil itself would not be the cause.....
Does anyone know at what the approximate temperature 10w30 oil would have to reach to cause extremely premature bearing failure?
Depends on the oil - but seems to me in such a scenario in a street car the oil itself would not be the cause.....
I don't think it's the cause either.
I haven't see the bad bearing yet, I'm waiting for it to be shipped to me. But this is what happened..
I purchased a engine from a rebuilder in Detroit. The engine started to knock all of a sudden and not being a idiot I stopped driving it and towed it home. I promptly called the builder and let them know what was going on and told them I would get it down to them as soon as I could. It finally got down there and they are denying the warranty claim because the engine had over heated causing the oil to over heat and loose viscosity allowing metal on metal contact.
I find this hard to believe. They put heat tabs on the block and the head. There are three all together and only one of them has melted, which was on the block. The one on the head is on the side of a main water jacket, and should have melted as well since the coolant was so hot that it heated the oil up that bad. The head was not warped, and the engine never went above 160 degrees.
I'm having a [censored] contest with them and I intend to win it. I believe it was a bad part, or bad assembly and either the heat tab melted from being defective or it was forced to melt. Once I have the bearings in my hands I will be able to determine the cause of failure.
I haven't see the bad bearing yet, I'm waiting for it to be shipped to me. But this is what happened..
I purchased a engine from a rebuilder in Detroit. The engine started to knock all of a sudden and not being a idiot I stopped driving it and towed it home. I promptly called the builder and let them know what was going on and told them I would get it down to them as soon as I could. It finally got down there and they are denying the warranty claim because the engine had over heated causing the oil to over heat and loose viscosity allowing metal on metal contact.
I find this hard to believe. They put heat tabs on the block and the head. There are three all together and only one of them has melted, which was on the block. The one on the head is on the side of a main water jacket, and should have melted as well since the coolant was so hot that it heated the oil up that bad. The head was not warped, and the engine never went above 160 degrees.
I'm having a [censored] contest with them and I intend to win it. I believe it was a bad part, or bad assembly and either the heat tab melted from being defective or it was forced to melt. Once I have the bearings in my hands I will be able to determine the cause of failure.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: kos
Does anyone know at what the approximate temperature 10w30 oil would have to reach to cause extremely premature bearing failure?
sure look up the oil of your choice and peek into the posted MSDS, manufatcture, specification, data, sheet.
look for the flash point and fire point of the oil and that should give you a better idea when your oil will fail due to excesive engine temp.
pick any brand from here http://www.wd-wpp.com/msds2.html
Does anyone know at what the approximate temperature 10w30 oil would have to reach to cause extremely premature bearing failure?
sure look up the oil of your choice and peek into the posted MSDS, manufatcture, specification, data, sheet.
look for the flash point and fire point of the oil and that should give you a better idea when your oil will fail due to excesive engine temp.
pick any brand from here http://www.wd-wpp.com/msds2.html
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Was the tab on the block near a header by chance? They get a LOT hotter than the coolant does....... 
FWIW, I'd have expected your coolant to have boiled over before the oil failed..........
FWIW, I'd have expected your coolant to have boiled over before the oil failed..........
First if the coolant system failed and it caused an over heat situation the head would be warped if it is an aluminium head. Second the rings would be glued up badly from a coolant failure. Third bearings do not require much in the way of cooling if oil is plentiful so long as the block does not warp from the heat wich if cast iron does not happen easily like it does with aluminiium and magnesium blocks. What more then likely happened is that either the wrong sized bearing was installed or the proper crush was not established and the bearing spun or the bearing was not properly installed and an oil hole was blocked. I would not trust them to send me a part as it was when it came out of the engine. I would suspect that they will send you a doctored part that will prove them right. Shops are crooked and seldom do the right thing unless you can force them too do the right thing with proof of their wrong doing.
You need to get an oil sample and the oil filter and send it off to a Terry Dyson.
You need to get an oil sample and the oil filter and send it off to a Terry Dyson.
Take the thermostat out and put it in some boiling water and see if it opens. If it doesn't, it's defective. I've had one motor that over heated due to that and it was less than 30 days old.
yes actually it was on the intake and exhaust side of the block.. so the header makes perfect sense.
If it had gotten so hot to melt the tab at least 260 degrees, and so hot that it broke down the oil at about 450 degrees, I should have noticed. I still had ice on my hood. My heat wasn't blistering hot. When it started knocking I put my hand on the valve cover, if it was that hot I would have caught on fire. And only one tab melted, out of 3... how odd.
If it had gotten so hot to melt the tab at least 260 degrees, and so hot that it broke down the oil at about 450 degrees, I should have noticed. I still had ice on my hood. My heat wasn't blistering hot. When it started knocking I put my hand on the valve cover, if it was that hot I would have caught on fire. And only one tab melted, out of 3... how odd.
The head is made of cast iron. I toyed with the idea that the thermostat could have been bad, stopping the flow of coolant. But in order to ruin a bearing from overheating, it would have to be over time so I would have noticed a over heating problem. Like I said, I'm waiting on the bearings which are currently in my fathers possession and I suspect that they are the ones that came out of the engine because I had it picked up from them almost immediately. I left the oil filter on the engine when I sent it to them since they wanted the oil left in it. I'm sure the filter and the oil are long gone, but I'll call them tomorrow. I may even get lucky and maybe there is enough residual oil in the short block to perform a test.
I plan to take this to court soon, I spent almost $2500 on this engine and I've only gotten 11,000 miles out of two of them. The first one had a bad bearing as well, and it was from the get go. They primed the engine prior to pick up, but they spun the oil pump backwards - counter clockwise instead of clockwise.
I plan to take this to court soon, I spent almost $2500 on this engine and I've only gotten 11,000 miles out of two of them. The first one had a bad bearing as well, and it was from the get go. They primed the engine prior to pick up, but they spun the oil pump backwards - counter clockwise instead of clockwise.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I would think that you would have to reach a bearing temp somewhere around 350F+ for any type of catastrophic failure. You would have been way over heated due to the output required to produce this "naturally". This would show on all the bearings if it was from overheating ..and you would have to drive it longer than (I would think) that the engine could sustain itself running.
This thing should have been knocking for quite some time under extreme conditions for it to be "your abuse". Again, if it's just one bearing ..they installed it wrong.
This thing should have been knocking for quite some time under extreme conditions for it to be "your abuse". Again, if it's just one bearing ..they installed it wrong.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: kos
The head is made of cast iron. I toyed with the idea that the thermostat could have been bad, stopping the flow of coolant. But in order to ruin a bearing from overheating, it would have to be over time so I would have noticed a over heating problem. Like I said, I'm waiting on the bearings. I left the oil filter on the engine when I sent it to them since they wanted the oil left in it. I'm sure the filter and the oil are long gone, but I'll call them tomorrow. I may even get lucky and maybe there is enough residual oil in the short block to perform a test.
I plan to take this to court soon, I spent almost $2500 on this engine and I've only gotten 11,000 miles out of two of them. The first one had a bad bearing as well, and it was from the get go. They primed the engine prior to pick up, but they spun the oil pump backwards - counter clockwise instead of clockwise.
This does not sound like a company I would be wanting to do business with.
What engine are we talking about here?
The head is made of cast iron. I toyed with the idea that the thermostat could have been bad, stopping the flow of coolant. But in order to ruin a bearing from overheating, it would have to be over time so I would have noticed a over heating problem. Like I said, I'm waiting on the bearings. I left the oil filter on the engine when I sent it to them since they wanted the oil left in it. I'm sure the filter and the oil are long gone, but I'll call them tomorrow. I may even get lucky and maybe there is enough residual oil in the short block to perform a test.
I plan to take this to court soon, I spent almost $2500 on this engine and I've only gotten 11,000 miles out of two of them. The first one had a bad bearing as well, and it was from the get go. They primed the engine prior to pick up, but they spun the oil pump backwards - counter clockwise instead of clockwise.
This does not sound like a company I would be wanting to do business with.
What engine are we talking about here?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: kos
The unbreakable 4.0L Jeep inline 6.
WOW!!!! I don't know where you are in Michigan, but a guy that does a lot of VERY good Mustang engine builds owns fordstrokers.com I would imagine that he would be able to come up with something a lot better built if you can get your money out of your original builder.
The unbreakable 4.0L Jeep inline 6.
WOW!!!! I don't know where you are in Michigan, but a guy that does a lot of VERY good Mustang engine builds owns fordstrokers.com I would imagine that he would be able to come up with something a lot better built if you can get your money out of your original builder.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
Yup. There is no way this bearing failure was caused by overheating of the engine.
Joe
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
Yup. There is no way this bearing failure was caused by overheating of the engine.
Joe
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: kos
The unbreakable 4.0L Jeep inline 6.
WOW!!!! I don't know where you are in Michigan, but a guy that does a lot of VERY good Mustang engine builds owns fordstrokers.com I would imagine that he would be able to come up with something a lot better built if you can get your money out of your original builder.
I'm working on it. I'm coming up with a lot of info to take to court. The only thing that sucks is that it's a 500 mile round trip to go down there to file the suit, and again to the court date.
I'm now just building up a 4.2L from a old AMC and putting my cylinder head on it with fuel injection. I'm going to start working on it here in the next few hours, I have to get the AMC home so I can start tearing it down.
Originally Posted By: kos
The unbreakable 4.0L Jeep inline 6.
WOW!!!! I don't know where you are in Michigan, but a guy that does a lot of VERY good Mustang engine builds owns fordstrokers.com I would imagine that he would be able to come up with something a lot better built if you can get your money out of your original builder.
I'm working on it. I'm coming up with a lot of info to take to court. The only thing that sucks is that it's a 500 mile round trip to go down there to file the suit, and again to the court date.
I'm now just building up a 4.2L from a old AMC and putting my cylinder head on it with fuel injection. I'm going to start working on it here in the next few hours, I have to get the AMC home so I can start tearing it down.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
It already has. Every time I've had to go down there to take my engine to them or to pick it up I had to take time off work and the cost of gas. I didn't calculate this into the law suit, but maybe I should. From my calculations based on the warranty, I'm owed just a little over $2000.
On the plus side though, I'm a pro at r&r'ing the engine in my Jeep. I got it out in 4 1/2 hours last time. eeeeeeasy
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
It already has. Every time I've had to go down there to take my engine to them or to pick it up I had to take time off work and the cost of gas. I didn't calculate this into the law suit, but maybe I should. From my calculations based on the warranty, I'm owed just a little over $2000.
On the plus side though, I'm a pro at r&r'ing the engine in my Jeep. I got it out in 4 1/2 hours last time. eeeeeeasy
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Lazy JW
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
Yup. There is no way this bearing failure was caused by overheating of the engine.
Joe
Oh, but you're wrong. According to this master engine builder who I quote "has put together over 25,000 engines" if the heat tab melts, it over heated. The manufacturer never has any defective tabs, and it's common for one out of three to melt. LOL
It's his screw up, but since they've already had to warranty the engine once due to their mistake, they don't want to do it again.
I contacted the manufacturer of the heat tabs about the premature failure rate, I'm waiting on a reply.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: kos
It was just one bearing. When I confronted them on this he came back with the reason being from high combustion chamber temperatures. This can't be the case either since the valves are perfect and the spark plugs look fine.
Zactly. The guy is dodging his lame bearing install. BBB and small claims. He's cost you $$$ in installation waste.
Yup. There is no way this bearing failure was caused by overheating of the engine.
Joe
Oh, but you're wrong. According to this master engine builder who I quote "has put together over 25,000 engines" if the heat tab melts, it over heated. The manufacturer never has any defective tabs, and it's common for one out of three to melt. LOL
It's his screw up, but since they've already had to warranty the engine once due to their mistake, they don't want to do it again.
I contacted the manufacturer of the heat tabs about the premature failure rate, I'm waiting on a reply.
- Status
