Income a family of four need to live comfortably by state in the U.S.

My first house, bought in 1992, was financed at 9%. That’s right, 9% interest. The purchase price was nearly three times our annual income as a young Navy Officer married to a public school teacher, along with that interest rate.
Its all sort of relative.

1992 was pretty crappy for sure - just coming out of recession. However housing @ 3x annual income was about historical mean. Currently its 5X, with mortgage rates around 7%. So just simple math says a typical payment now is about 30% more than in 1992, relative to median income. Of course finding a good job then vs now was much harder.

I was fortunate to graduate college in the late 90's boom - so I was able to get a good job. However I purchased my first house in 2006.

You win some you loose some.
 
I’ve said this before on here….

I gave each of my 3 grown children $70K for the down payment for their house (2014, 2016, 2017) in a nice area with low crime and good schools.

All 3 are happy to have a house by the age of 27 and driving a $15K Honda. No spending on unnecessary junk and their mortgage is similar to a 1 bedroom apartment in clean safe area. They also max their yearly retirement contributions.

Most of their colleagues their age are struggling to buy a house. I agree the Boomers had it easier when a house was 4X their pay….. not 10-12X pay in todays real world.
Your kids are lucky. I wish I got money from my parents for that kind of thing. They helped with rent in college, that’s it, and I’m grateful for that. I paid tuition by taking loans and working two jobs while in school. I was cut off completely after that. Paid my way through grad school. Got a job and bought a foreclosure as the housing recession waned by taking a loan against my 401k.

I’m now a manager and I sometimes interview kids who have never worked a job in their lives. Just school experience on their resumes, and unpaid internships (must be nice). I ask them if they’ve ever had a job, nope. Not even a high school gig.

Coaching grit and resilience are going to be in-demand managerial skills, that’s for sure.
 
I can’t find a “good” chart or resource for median house price to median income, butI can find is that housing has been increasing far faster than income.

Now that is tempered by what used to be “normal” interest rates. I’m not sure how to compare, on a payment basis, yesterday’s and today’s data. A low principle amount at a high APR might represent a smaller portion of one’s budget than a high principle amount at a low APR.
 
Not sure if that is a good data point. It’s using all house transactions, not median.

I’m also confused. Median income divided by house transaction price, divided into 1, is house transaction price divided by income. Which should be around 3 to 5, not less than 0.01.
 
$189K in WV is comfortable?? You would basically be a millionaire in WV making that kind of money! One thing about that chart, it doesn’t factor in income taxes on 2 salaries as opposed to 1 (when married filing jointly)-1 salary making half the total is going to pay a lot less tax. I’m guessing the numbers are pretax income?
 
Not sure if that is a good data point. It’s using all house transactions, not median.

I’m also confused. Median income divided by house transaction price, divided into 1, is house transaction price divided by income. Which should be around 3 to 5, not less than 0.01.
With an engineering background I find economist math a bit off. However its what your looking for.

There taking 1/ (median income in real dollars / Housing price index (non seasonally adjusted)

The absolute number is weird because there using a housing index rather than an absolute number which is just a benchmark where 1980 = 100. So you get really small numbers. Relatively speaking there the same.

ie just look at the pretty graph and the jest of it is accurate.

If your really interested you can follow each series - MEHOINUSA672N, and USSTHPI and read about the series methodologies. I recommend reading it at bed time :)
 
Comfortable.
In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I do think you can spend the amount listed and consider yourselves comfortable. I also think your family of four can be very comfortable living on half the income listed, while still saving 20%. Maybe not in LA or Frisco (slight intended), but in most places.
 
While I feel for people starting out (my six kids are in that category), and the real estate costs are daunting, you make some assumptions about previous generations that are utterly untrue.

I didn’t buy my first home for a song, and finance it for near zero percent. I’m not actually a Boomer, but it was 32 years ago, so I’m squarely in your sights with that misrepresentation.

My first house, bought in 1992, was financed at 9%. That’s right, 9% interest. The purchase price was nearly three times our annual income as a young Navy Officer married to a public school teacher, along with that interest rate.

So, it was worse than kids buying it today. A lot worse.

I didn’t have two car payments. I didn’t even have one, because to afford that house took about 35% of our income, and there was nothing left over in the budget for cars. We were strapped. House poor with that 9% mortgage.

I drove a 22 year old Ford wagon, with AM radio, crank windows, and no power steering. The wife got my 1985 Trans-Am, that had been paid off. It’s the only way I could make ends meet. There was no new car budget. No room for one car payment, much less two.

Your hypothetical person today enjoys a level of luxury and safety in today’s cars that was unimaginable for me 30 years ago, with ABS, air conditioning, entertainment and navigation, and everything that comes standard today.

Cable TV, Internet, computers, and cellphones didn’t exist.

So, again, your hypothetical person enjoys a level of luxury, and connectivity, that I didn’t have back then.

We were lucky to have a toaster oven on our budget. No microwave. No Keurig. No HDTV. None of the consumer goods that everyone expects today.

We live in an age of incredibly high expectations and standards of living.

Folks living below today’s poverty line have stuff that I couldn’t afford 30 years ago, or things that hadn’t been invented yet, that are now part of everyone’s expectation.
Worse?? Maybe different.

I’m not really any generation. Kind of an age between a lot of stuff. But I vividly remember my parents buying a house and talking about points and double digit interest rates. Makes 9%, or today’s 8-ish% seem low.

But the double digits of the early 80s were preceded by “high” percentages (relative to, say, the last decade) for many years before... and after. Your 9% based upon the chart below, is almost a reversion to normal (as may today’s rate increases). That’s a vast difference from historic lows for a decade or more that we’ve seen recently. Yes, it makes for different pricing structure. That is also explained in the Ted talk I mentioned above. Not saying I agree with everything the guy says, but it hits on a lot of areas.

BTW, here’s the case in point from the St. Louis Fed.

IMG_8297.jpeg


So you suffered to make ends meet. Great. I hear ya. My parents bought cars with no AC. They pinched pennies too. As did my in laws. As do I. As should most.

But to make a hypothetical and evaluate costs that would make up a graphic like the OP’s, which has a non-objective basis of “comfortable” living, all I did was make a beyond simple math basis of what would drive a $200k (or higher) cost. It makes total sense when I see the situation of people all around living in.

And sure, the payment as a fraction of somebody’s income may have been lousy back when with different interest and housing rates, and niceties. But for the last what, 20 years, pricing has been affected by the low rates allowing more “buying power”, which allows pricing to rise higher…. And now, today, when rates go back up, against housing prices that factor in 3% type mortgages, yet buyers have to buy in at 7%, it’s a vast difference in monthly outlay. And when you look across the life of the loan, the difference is hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But as my notional roll-up showed, that’s what? $50k of it? Sure people can make that work on far less means than OP’s graphic. Absolutely. Someone today could drive an 1995 Ford Aerostar instead of a new Sienna. They could have no cellphone, or an Uber-cheap, no frills existence. And that may result in less of this non-objective “comfortable” metric, but what “comfortable” might be… THAT was the point of the discussion and my post. If you look at what is kind of considered a normal life to many these days, we get an income need of $x. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, if you want to overlook the gross mismanagement of people in the past (which would include, the “greatest generation” I suspect since they were really in charge when much of the defecit spending and pension raiding started), go for it. And I’m not saying that anyone else will do it better. Im not saying that the idiots out getting stupid degrees and protesting in the cities have any semblance of better ideas. But every dollar incurred today is going to have to be paid by my two year old when I’m long dead. Not to mention the reckoning for debts incurred and spent by folks who are long dead even today. That’s scary. And it has a linkage to everything else going on, including rates, RE pricing, etc. The amounts owed now, the fake liquidity, the printed money, the unfunded liabilities…. The debt. That should concern you regardless if your kids are 2 or 22 or 42.
 
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I’ve said this before on here….

We gave each of our 3 grown children $70K for the down payment for their house (2014, 2016, 2017) in a nice area with low crime and good schools. Military and tuition reimbursement at work paid for their educations.

All 3 are happy to have a house by the age of 27 and driving a $10K Honda. No spending on unnecessary junk and their mortgage is similar to a 1 bedroom apartment in clean safe area. They also max their yearly retirement contributions.

Most of their colleagues their age are struggling to buy a house.

I agree the Boomers had it easier when a house was 4X their pay….. not 10-12X pay in todays real world.
At 15% interest …
 
The houses made and sold in 1980 with biggish interest rates were 900 sq ft ranches. They were cheap to build and permitted by local zoning. Since then people have figured out the scam of making new buyers pay a disproportionate share of local school taxes by only allowing McMansions. Limit anything and the "quality" (snicker) and price go up so the ROI is there.

People wanting to own a cheap house have to have it built, and not bought on speculation. Finding a builder willing to do that during a trades worker shortage is also hard.

If it weren't for housing people would be doing pretty okay. Oh, and medical and educational expenses. Anything you really need, LOL.
 
Worse?? Maybe different.

I’m not really any generation. Kind of an age between a lot of stuff. But I vividly remember my parents buying a house and talking about points and double digit interest rates. Makes 9%, or today’s 8-ish% seem low.

But the double digits of the early 80s were preceded by “high” percentages (relative to, say, the last decade) for many years before. That’s a vast difference from historic lows for a decade or more that we’ve seen recently. Yes, it makes for different pricing structure. That is also explained in the Ted talk I mentioned above. Not saying I agree with everything the guy says, but it hits on a lot of areas.

BTW, here’s the case in point from the St. Louis Fed.

View attachment 218993

So you suffered to make ends meet. Great. I hear ya. My parents bought cars with no AC. They pinched pennies too. As did my in laws. As do I. As should most.

But to make a hypothetical and evaluate costs that would make up a graphic like the OP’s, which has a non-objective basis of “comfortable” living, all I did was make a beyond simple math basis of what would drive a $200k (or higher) cost. It makes total sense when I see the situation of people all around living in.

And sure, the payment as a fraction of somebody’s income may have been lousy back when with different interest and housing rates, and niceties. But for the last what, 20 years, pricing has been affected by the low rates allowing more “buying power”, which allows pricing to rise higher…. And now, today, when rates go back up, against housing prices that factor in 3% type mortgages, yet buyers have to buy in at 7%, it’s a vast difference in monthly outlay. And when you look across the life of the loan, the difference is hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But as my notional roll-up showed, that’s what? $50k of it? Sure people can make that work on far less means than OP’s graphic. Absolutely. Someone today could drive an 1995 Ford Aerostar instead of a new Sienna. They could have no cellphone, or an Uber-cheap, no frills existence. And that may result in less of this non-objective “comfortable” metric, but what “comfortable” might be… THAT was the point of the discussion and my post. If you look at what is kind of considered a normal life to many these days, we get an income need of $x. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, if you want to overlook the gross mismanagement of people in the past (which would include, the “greatest generation” I suspect since they were really in charge when much of the defecit spending and pension raiding started), go for it. And I’m not saying that anyone else will do it better. Im not saying that the idiots out getting stupid degrees and protesting in the cities have any semblance of better ideas. But every dollar incurred today is going to have to be paid by my two year old when I’m long dead. Not to mention the reckoning for debts incurred and spent by folks who are long dead even today. That’s scary. That should concern you regardless if your kids are 2 or 22 or 42.
Just read your chart after posting 15% which was 1985 - BOOM
 
The houses made and sold in 1980 with biggish interest rates were 900 sq ft ranches. They were cheap to build and permitted by local zoning. Since then people have figured out the scam of making new buyers pay a disproportionate share of local school taxes by only allowing McMansions. Limit anything and the "quality" (snicker) and price go up so the ROI is there.

People wanting to own a cheap house have to have it built, and not bought on speculation. Finding a builder willing to do that during a trades worker shortage is also hard.

If it weren't for housing people would be doing pretty okay. Oh, and medical and educational expenses. Anything you really need, LOL.
This is inflation in the 80’s - I clipped the top to remove POTUS

IMG_2507.jpg
 
I don't buy into those figures at all. It's very possible to live comfortably with half the incomes as stated. Maybe except Calfornia and N.Y.
 
Comfortable.
In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I do think you can spend the amount listed and consider yourselves comfortable. I also think your family of four can be very comfortable living on half the income listed, while still saving 20%. Maybe not in LA or Frisco (slight intended), but in most places.
I missed it the first time too.

In the chart it defines what it thinks is "comfortable". 20% to savings, and a whopping 30% to having a good ole fun time. With only 50% going to cars, houses, taxes, etc.

If I spent 30% of my income on having a fun time... woohoo! :) Yeah I'd be comfortable. That's like an overseas trip per year, and then some.

I don't spend 30% of my income on "fun" but I'm pretty comfy. I don't "need" more to be happy. But would I like to spend 30% on fun, while socking away 20% (let alone more)? Sure would!

We could take that data and alter it. Ignoring taxes, if one saves 20%, spends 10% on fun, and 70% goes to life, you can round that chart down by 20%. If you use 10% to savings, 10% to fun, and 80% to getting by, that's like a 30% reduction. Would that be comfy enough for most? I guess if they make above poverty line, maybe?

I did some quick math, using only annual compounding. A 10% savings rate starting at 25 and using 40 years of growth, should get more than 10x in savings for retirement. Granted, one wants to save more for things outside of retirement (kids colleges, etc) but even a 10% savings rate would probably be good enough for "most".

1715529235193.jpg
 
Things to also consider on top of the price of food, fuel, groceries, electricity, heating fuel, insurance etc.

Childcare
College
Healthcare
Retirement
Emergency fund

I know I missed a lot.
 


I don't agree with everything Peter Zeihan says, but his speeches on demographics and economics seem pretty rational. I have felt for a couple of years now that interest rates were headed much higher. These might be "the good old days" when compared to the not so distant future.
 


I don't agree with everything Peter Zeihan says, but his speeches on demographics and economics seem pretty rational. I have felt for a couple of years now that interest rates were headed much higher. These might be "the good old days" when compared to the not so distant future.

I like Peter Zeihan a lot, read his last book front to back. Having said that his recent success I think has gone to his head and he is now a expert on everything according to him.

The global debt is now 3.5X global GDP. The world can't tolerate higher interest rates, not long term at least - maybe short term. How that reconciles will be interesting to say the least.
 
Your kids are lucky. I wish I got money from my parents for that kind of thing. They helped with rent in college, that’s it, and I’m grateful for that. I paid tuition by taking loans and working two jobs while in school. I was cut off completely after that. Paid my way through grad school. Got a job and bought a foreclosure as the housing recession waned by taking a loan against my 401k.

I’m now a manager and I sometimes interview kids who have never worked a job in their lives. Just school experience on their resumes, and unpaid internships (must be nice). I ask them if they’ve ever had a job, nope. Not even a high school gig.

Coaching grit and resilience are going to be in-demand managerial skills, that’s for sure.

I edited my original post stating military and tuition reimbursement paid for their college.
If they weren’t hard working and motivated I wouldn’t have given them a penny for down payment.

My brother helped his son buy a townhouse 2 years ago and helped with down payment.
 
Are you not "comfortable"? Well, I wasn't so I did something about it.
My pet peeve is the lack of personal finance teaching in schools. Luckily I could do basic arithmetic, so I could add up numbers to see what I could afford.
Being drunk, homeless and broke taught me what I didn't want to be; drunk, homeless and broke.
No one was gonna pay for my education, rent, down payment, etc. I found out that Silicon Valley would pay 80% or better for education costs. Gimme that!
My 1st property was a small 2/1 condo with a carport. $90K, 5% down, 10% rate. My boss at work wrote a letter to the bank saying my salary was likely to increase; getting the loan was borderline at best. I was in business.

Luckily I was in California where things are filthy expensive. Why? Because there is lotsa $$ here. I am not sure where else someone who had thrown away 33 years could have a chance at a comfortable life.
I love statistics like on this post. Go for the 1% bracket. Or better.

Oh yeah, you need to learn about finance, especially long term investing. Short term stuff is fluff.
I wish you luck.
 
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