I'm all out - Mobil 2T replacement

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
The AeroShell Sport Plus 2 is a tweaked version of the Pennzoil 2-cycle oil for air cooled engines. Cost more because it says Aero on the bottle.

Last I heard the Husky 2-cycle oil was a blend and was being made by CITGO.

All of the Stihl oils (regular, blend, and synthetic) are packaged/bottled in Shreveport, LA by an independent bottler and the oil is formulated/blended by Castrol (BP).

I know it's not a chainsaw and run at low rpm's compared to a chainsaw, but my 44-year old Lawn Boy runs on regular Lawn Boy 2-cycle oil, which as for as I know is still being made by CITGO.


44 years is impressive, how many hours on the Lawn Boy. For example on a commercial weed trimmer with 16 years with thousands of hours it's still kicking(not the same as new but still doing okay) in my book is really impressive..nothing but Shindaiwa 2 cycle oil(mineral than synthetic blend). BUT the key was the tear downs, strip it after so many hours of usage..inspect and clean everything have the actual look what's going on. Now if I had a synthetic blend(Shindaiwa one) or a synthetic 2 cycle oil it would still go through the same tear down. I'd say IT did make a difference the cleaning on the tear downs for efficiency ...that's the key on my experience...a 2cycle engine will get dirty just the nature of the business!

Now comparing a a synthetic 2 cycle oil versus a non synthetic 2 cycle oil ... well in theory a synthetic 2 cycle oil has better properties more cushion versus a mineral 2 cycle oil. But also it's proven using a mineral Shindaiwa 2 cycle oil with thousands hours of usage on a Shindaiwa trimmer that had tear downs and was cleaned and inspected.

If using a top tier 2 cycle synthetic oil would require LESS cleaning and inspection on a commercial usage versus a mineral 2 cycle oil ... to be honest I don't know because I haven't done it but if I had I would say it. With due respect with thousands of hours of usage with the Shindaiwa trimmer the key was the tear downs, clean everything and the inspections.

 

[i6pwr]

One important part of the equation we seem to be missing here, is the OP never stated what the usage was for.

Not to chose a specific application, but engines for chainsaws, lawnmowers, string trimmers, etc...cannot be put in the same league as a 2-cycle superbike or perhaps a snowmobile.

I have a Ryobi string trimmer for 9 years that will not die, and has used regular 2-cycle oil, basically whatever I can get my hands on.

I agree the best synthetics will not do much to extend the life of an engine for the string trimmer before the other parts wear out first and you toss it, over the cheaper oils.

Mobil Racing 2T just plain rocks, not sure why it was discontinued either....would also like to see a direct or better replacement. Again I agree, it's overkill in most applications.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: i6pwr
One important part of the equation we seem to be missing here, is the OP never stated what the usage was for.

Not to chose a specific application, but engines for chainsaws, lawnmowers, string trimmers, etc...cannot be put in the same league as a 2-cycle superbike or perhaps a snowmobile.

I have a Ryobi string trimmer for 9 years that will not die, and has used regular 2-cycle oil, basically whatever I can get my hands on.

I agree the best synthetics will not do much to extend the life of an engine for the string trimmer before the other parts wear out first and you toss it, over the cheaper oils.

Mobil Racing 2T just plain rocks, not sure why it was discontinued either....would also like to see a direct or better replacement. Again I agree, it's overkill in most applications.



Tear downs and inspections does cost time and labor...if a top tier 2 cycle synthetic oil can reduce that cost with less cleaning and tear down I'd say on a commercial level it's worth a look.

 

[boraticus]

"Not to chose a specific application, but engines for chainsaws, lawnmowers, string trimmers, etc...cannot be put in the same league as a 2-cycle superbike or perhaps a snowmobile."

My Jonsereds chainsaw spins at 13000 rpm. I wouldn't say that's slow. It's not liquid cooled and it isn't receiving the benefit of a 180 mile per hour breeze flying down the straight stretch at a race track. Don't underestimate the stress that some OPE has to handle.

My point is that paying three to ten times the price of good mineral oil will not deliver an equal amount of protection. No where near it.

Mamala Bay:

I doubt that many people actually tear down their engines. Particularly homeowners. I would bet that most pros would likely would not bother to do so either. From my experience, engines seem to outlast the rest of the machine. By the time the engine needs work, the running gear and business ends of the machines are pretty much worn. Not in all cases of course but probably most.

 

[Johnny]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay

44 years is impressive, how many hours on the Lawn Boy.


Hard to say. From 1966 to 1989 when I lived in Texas, the mowing season was longer, but since 1989 when I moved to Wisconsin, I start my mowing sometime in May and it usually gets its last mowing sometime in mid to late October. I mow once per week and it takes me about 1.5 hours per mowing.

As for as to why they quit selling Mobil 1 2T, it was just not a popular oil here in North America. I believe it is still sold in Europe and its main purpose was for racing 2-cycle motorcycles, which they do a lot of in Europe, or at least they use to.

 

[i6pwr]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
My point is that paying three to ten times the price of good mineral oil will not deliver an equal amount of protection


I basically agreed with that stating the components will be gone before the engine will wear out on mineral oil.

I understand the RPM's of chainsaws,...but they are hardly a 200+ HP/liter engine. They are strong engines for sure for their size, but i'm referring to a 2 or 3 cyl superbike, much higher loads on components.

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: i6pwr
Originally Posted By: boraticus
My point is that paying three to ten times the price of good mineral oil will not deliver an equal amount of protection


I basically agreed with that stating the components will be gone before the engine will wear out on mineral oil.

I understand the RPM's of chainsaws,...but they are hardly a 200+ HP/liter engine. They are strong engines for sure for their size, but i'm referring to a 2 or 3 cyl superbike, much higher loads on components.



That racing engine will also have liquid cooling and built from exotic metals, have special coatings and bearings which all contribute to less friction and better heat dissipation. It will be hurtling around a race track a great speed which also contributes to heat dissipation.

A 60cc, 5 h.p. chainsaw engine will be air cooled, made of off the shelf materials, spinning at incredibly high rpms and basically stationary.

Which engine would you estimate is running hotter?

 

[i6pwr]

I didn't mention running temps, I mentioned loads..ie, rod/main, piston/pin, transmission..etc.

Running temps?

How about around 1200 deg F EGT's for a superbike compared to around 500-600 deg F for a 70cc saw.

Which would you estimate is running hotter?

We're not talking oil in a muffler but you get my point. Cylinders on a saw are surely going to run hot being partially enclosed compared to a liquid-cooled bike.

I'm not here to discredit anyone on their mechanical knowledge, I agreed to the fact mineral-based oils will allow a motor to live past the point of other components....that's not my point.

I've been around engines for awhile, I know for a fact a top ring of a superbike 2-stroker gets far hotter than a chainsaw.

Exhaust gasses granted don't spend too much time in an engine, and the related components aren't the same temp as the gases....but i'm sure you are aware of this.

 

[boraticus]

"Running temps?"

Don't know what to say about that comment?

Isn't the function of lubricant to reduce friction to control heat?



Hot exhaust gases are a good thing. The hotter the better. Gas flow efficiency increases with exhaust gas temps.

The lubricant's job isn't to manage exhaust gas temperatures. So I have no idea why you'd even bring that up. It's primary function is to keep engine components lubricated to reduce/control friction to maintain proper operating temperatures. No?

Despite the fact that higher temperature exhausts gases may occur in a race engine, that does not mean that the engine will be running hotter. That's what the liquid cooling is all about.

In addition to that, variable electronic ignition timing, modern cylinder head/squish band design, variable exhaust port timing and advanced expansion chamber design all promote rapid exhaust gas evacuation which minimizes it's ability to conduct heat to piston crown and cylinder head. I don't know of any chainsaw that has the luxury of the above components.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:

Does variable electronic ignition timing promote more efficient combustion and assist in expediting exhaust gas flow?

Is liquid cooling more efficient at cooling an engine than air cooling?

Does liquid cooling provide relatively more stable engine temps?

Which engine would have cooler internal components?

Air cooled or liquid cooled.



Take an infrared thermometer and read the temps on a liquid cooled engine head then take a reading on an air cooled engine head. Let us know which has the higher temperature.

One last question.

Which physical effect will cause quickest oil failure? Load or heat?

It would appear that you're reluctant to accept the fact that a chainsaw engine is likely a considerably more hostile environment for oil than you can appreciate.

By the way, I'm no stranger to two cycle motorcycle engines. I own several vintage air cooled twins which have been modified for high performance.

HEAT is the enemy.

 

[i6pwr]

Originally Posted By: boraticus

My point is that paying three to ten times the price of good mineral oil will not deliver an equal amount of protection. No where near it.


In a chainsaw no, in an application like, maybe a superbike..yes. Can you put a value on the amount of protection....3 to 10 times? I'm simply stating, synthetics live better in high heat than a mineral oil, i'm not talking castor oil either.

Originally Posted By: boratious
The lubricant's job isn't to manage exhaust gas temperatures. So I have no idea why you'd even bring that up.


I didn't say it did, I mentioned the top piston ring, which is exposed to a cylinder wall, near an exhaust port, which flows very hot exhaust gases. My ONLY point in which I thought was painfully obvious, that the top ring is more susceptible to possibly coking if temps climb near about 600 deg or more, synthetic would be a precautionary step, may not be needed..again we don't know what the OP needs the oil for.

Originally Posted By: boratious
It would appear that you're reluctant to accept the fact that a chainsaw engine is likely a considerably more hostile environment for oil than you can appreciate.


When did I ever state or remotely imply that a chainsaw doesn't live in a hostile environment? I also agreed that the saw cylinder would be warmer being in a partially enclosed housing.

Sorry, but you are way off base here. You need to reread my posts. I never tried to discredit you, I simply stated, that some peeps prob like to spend a little more on their oil. maybe they like to know that if anything got out of whack, real hot, whatever....then the motor has a better chance.

Who cares what oil people use....that's the beauty of this country.

I know how engines work, rebuilt a few of them. I'm not going to entertain a knowledge war on engines.

I understand the workings of chainsaw engines...yes, they spin very fast and make decent power, I stand by what I stated that a saw engine and a superbike engine are two different animals and they don't compare.

Maybe you can take a bottle of Stihl orange mineral oil down to the Repsol team and ask them if they can try it in one of their bikes since it lasts a long time in a chainsaw, I would like to see the reaction.

I don't know why there is an argument here, this topic gets beat to death and alot of peeps have many, many years on mineral oil...I know this. The OP wants a replacement...for whatever reason, I like Racing 2T...my engines are real clean inside and run like a champ, I like that. Could mineral oil dulicate the results....possibly. When I run out of my stash...i'll prolly go with Motul 800....who knows.

Racing 2T has a real, distinct smell also.....love it.
I will likely stay with synthetic since it works for me, and I feel the price is negligible, like I stated before...for the QUANTITY I USE. Perhaps if I had a business with 20 or 30 pieces of power equipment, then paying 10 times for oil would likely not be advantageous providing I was going through 30 or more gallons of fuel a day.

That I agreee with.

OP wants Racing 2T or equivalent.....when I find it or hear anything, I will let you know.

 

[boraticus]

"Not to chose a specific application, but engines for chainsaws, lawnmowers, string trimmers, etc...cannot be put in the same league as a 2-cycle superbike or perhaps a snowmobile."

Would you care to elaborate on what you meant in the above statement?

From what I see, and staying with the discussion context of oil/protection, you're making a reference that a chainsaw engine doesn't experience as difficult an environment as the other engine applications you've mentioned.

That is the point that I had issue with.

A chainsaw does not live an easy life yet they seem to survive quite handily with any decent quality, off the shelf 2T mineral oil.

 

[Bror Jace]

boraticus, do you think the main difference between typical, mineral oils and the higher priced synthetic stuff used in mundane OPE is that the synthetics will allow a machine that is not perfectly jetted/tuned to run without a lot of fouling?

In other words, they are more user friendly and that is why so many people seem to be very happy with them?

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
boraticus, do you think the main difference between typical, mineral oils and the higher priced synthetic stuff used in mundane OPE is that the synthetics will allow a machine that is not perfectly jetted/tuned to run without a lot of fouling?

In other words, they are more user friendly and that is why so many people seem to be very happy with them?


I have no idea what the benefits of synthetic two cycle engine oil is when used in OPE. I've only use one bottle of it because it was included with the purchase of one of my machines. I used it and didn't notice any difference at all.

Personally, I've never experienced fouling in a two cycle engine and I have a lot of them. Fouling is usually caused by using too cold a plug, running the engine too slowly and not developing sufficient engine temperatures as well as too rich a fuel mixture.

From what I've been reading, many users of synthetic oil run their oil to fuel ratio at ridiculously thin levels. I don't like the idea of running air cooled, high revving engines at 80 or 100:1. I'd suspect that if one prefers to not run their two cycle engines w.o.t. that synthetic mixed at above referenced ratios might contribute to less plug fouling.

I use a good quality off the shelf $15.00/gallon two cycle oil and mix it at around 30 to 40:1 in all of my air cooled engines. I'm not real fussy about exact ratios as long as it's rich enough. My outboards which are rated at 100:1 get around 75 to 80:1. They don't see the rpms or severe service the air cooled engines do so they can get by at that ratio.

I also use the same oil in the oil injection systems on my modified two cycle vintage Yamaha motorcycles.

Everything is happy.

Personally, I feel that many people don't think they're doing right by their engines if they're not paying a fortune for oil.

It's like a mental exercise where a person sees two bottles of oil on the shelf. One is priced at $3.00 with a plain label the other $15.00 with a picture of a race bike and a checkered flag. Hey! The $15.00 stuff HAS to be better right? Got the big price tag and eye catching picture!!! Maybe it is by about 1%. Certainly not worth five times the price.

 

[helix_rider]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
Personally, I feel that many people don't think they're doing right by their engines if they're not paying a fortune for oil.


I've had no problems at all using SuperTech 2-cycle oil from wal-mart. Not expensive and probably not the best quality, but I run 40:1 in everything - chainsaws, small generator, weed whacker, leaf blower, and old Honda Elite 50cc scooter (yeah, I know - not injector oil but it worked), etc. Never had a problem with fouling plugs at a 40:1 ratio, nor have I had an engine failure at this ratio either - even using a cheaper oil.

Would I use any 2-cycle oil (dino or syn) at 100:1? Not a chance. Many do - and that's their choice, but 40:1 is my choice, and i will use a 24:1 ratio when breaking-in new equipment.

 

[kcfx4]

imo, ppl shouldnt run 2stroke oil that mentions boats on the bottle, OPE 2cycle only in OPE

 

[Bror Jace]

"imo, ppl shouldnt run 2stroke oil that mentions boats on the bottle, OPE 2cycle only in OPE"

Isn't TCW3 only for water-cooled engines where the non-TCW3 formulas are for air-cooled engines that run hotter and require more metallic additives?

 

[j_mac]

Isn't TCW-3 some kinda EPA "Save the Whales" rating or whatever. Someone correct me on this.

 

[Bror Jace]

Yes J-Mac, since a certain portion of outboard 2-cycle oil ends up in the water, the idea was to develop formulas that protect engines while minimizing the amount of toxic additives ending up in the water.

Anyway, running a "high-ash" (high metallic additives) 2-stroke oil in a cooler-running liquid-cooled motor should lead to fouling of plugs, valves, etc ... as the temps typically don't get high enough to properly burn off the additives.

Just about everything you wanted to know about 2-stroke engine oils is summarized in this article:

http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm

However, I did find a few picky items within the article I questioned ... but just a few. I'm also not sure how old it is. It may require updating to be current with commercial offerings now available.

 

[kcfx4]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
Originally Posted By: Steve S
The Mobil 2T oil was by far the best oil I ever used.


Considering your fervent zeal for Mobil 2T, there must have been some fantastic results, if not miracles performed from using it.

Would you care to share some examples of the benefits with us?

there are none, their equipment still runs, as does yours, only they opt to pay more $$

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: kcfx4
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Originally Posted By: Steve S
The Mobil 2T oil was by far the best oil I ever used.


Considering your fervent zeal for Mobil 2T, there must have been some fantastic results, if not miracles performed from using it.

Would you care to share some examples of the benefits with us?

there are none, their equipment still runs, as does yours, only they opt to pay more $$


Actually, we have excellent overall results with M1 2t in Kart engines. The proof is in the lifespan, in particular, crankshaft life, ring life, and overall life.

2 stroke GP bikes did well on it too.

However, you are right, without scientific lab testing, this is just another one of Cujet's real world anecdotes, easily dismissed by the scientists. Just like all the other modifications people do to vehicles. Without proper testing, it can't possibly be better, faster, last longer etc.