Illinois 15 dollar/hr incremental raise

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Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by ZZman
You would think they could simply outlaw offshoring. Give huge penalties for it and lock up the CEO/CFO if caught doing it.

if only things were that easy.....


Yeah, the world doesn't work that way. The US imported about 2.9 trillion in good in 2017. The US exported about 2.33 trillion worth of goods. No way to make all that in the US. Plus if you stop importing, you also stop exporting as countries retaliate. It partly contributed to the great depression, trade kinda died worldwide as everyone tried to limit imports.

You have to know history to avoid repeating it.
 
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Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Wolf359
It's an interesting tirade, but how about workers banding together to force higher wages? Or them voting in people who will give it to them.

They're called unions, and they didn't work out so well either. Just ask Gary, Indiana steelworkers, or Detroit auto workers.


They worked great until Corp America figured out they could exploit other workers and the environment of other countries. Greed does that.

Greed works both ways. Constantly striking union workers priced themselves out of a job at both the Gary steel mills and the Detroit auto plants. It's why the production there has all but stopped compared to what it once was. And both cities have turned into crime ridden stink holes, where property values are all but nonexistent.

Unions are no different than sex, drugs, and alcohol. Just because a little is good, it doesn't mean more is better. And when people think it is, the abuse ends up costing them everything.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
In my defense I don't complain about taxes. I pay what they say I owe. I don't ask for a tax cut. I would rather have my tax money going for what it is needed for including helping others.

What are you, "defending"? So you do what every American does. You pay your taxes. Big deal. "Asking" for a tax cut, or complaining about paying them means nothing. If you don't pay, or don't pay enough you'll be audited and forced to pay. And you have no idea or control of where your tax money goes, or how it's spent. It may be spent, "helping others" by paying for the next JDAM our military drops on their heads. You have no say in the matter. One way or another, you help pay for every fighter plane in our inventory. That doesn't give you the right to take it up for a spin.

As for everything else involving how "caring" you are, and what you want as far as paying everyone more, while holding hands and singing Kumybya. You are living in an economic fantasy world. That is completely void of any and all economic common sense.

You cannot dictate or control wages. You cannot control how or where companies manufacture their products, or spend their profits. You cannot "tax the rich" into oblivion by stealing their wealth. Then turn around and give it to poor, uneducated souls who are not worth what you are paying them, just because it warms your little heart.

All of this nonsense has been tried several times over. In countries around this planet. And every time it has it's failed horribly. The only people who rant about how wonderful socialism is, along with all the government economic theft and controls that it brings, are people who have never lived under it. It results in nothing but economic disaster. Read a history book, or pick up a newspaper.

Governments produce nothing. They cannot give anything to anyone they don't first take away from someone else. They have proven over and over they cannot economically run any program they manage with economic solvency. Regardless of how much money they take from the citizenry to do it.

You have example after example of countless government programs in this country alone, that have all been economically run into the ground by these elected idiots. And now you want these same financial nit wits to get involved in wages, prices, and the manufacturing of products in private business. All you are going to establish is a solid cornerstone on which to build an economic disaster. And the only "fairness" you will achieve is the equal sharing of misery.
 
Originally Posted by billt460


Governments produce nothing. They cannot give anything to anyone they don't first take away from someone else. They have proven over and over they cannot economically run any program they manage with economic solvency. Regardless of how much money they take from the citizenry to do it.





You miss the point of Government. It is about people not profit. It is to redistribute $ around for the betterment of society as a whole. Otherwise we would have the world we see in the movie Hunger Games.

Of course some wages can be dictated. It is called minimum wage. STATES have taken the initiative even if the Feds won't.

We both have our own fantasy. You a dog eat dog survival of the fittest one. Me a kinder more caring one where all people do better and have a decent existence thru better wages/benefits or assistance.

Anyone surprised this hasn't been locked yet?....:)
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by ZZman
You would think they could simply outlaw offshoring. Give huge penalties for it and lock up the CEO/CFO if caught doing it.

if only things were that easy.....


Yeah, the world doesn't work that way. The US imported about 2.9 trillion in good in 2017.


I wasn't talking imports. I was talking more in terms of offshoring cash or profits to avoid U.S taxes.
 
And remember without government we don't have order, regulations and laws. This would include things like environmental laws, labor laws, Financial laws Etc that help prevent the Powerful from abusing everyone else below them
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
You miss the point of Government. It is about people not profit. It is to redistribute $ around for the betterment of society as a whole.

Only if you believe in socialism / communism. Which has never worked yet. And seeing as you are so convinced it's the economic answer to your prayers, why don't you move to a socialistic country? With your attitude of giving, they'll be none too happy to have you. Then you can exist in a country that you believe is such an economic utopia. Instead of pushing for the ruination of this one. Be sure to say hello to Castro or Maduro for me when you get there.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by ZZman
You would think they could simply outlaw offshoring. Give huge penalties for it and lock up the CEO/CFO if caught doing it.

if only things were that easy.....


Yeah, the world doesn't work that way. The US imported about 2.9 trillion in good in 2017.


I wasn't talking imports. I was talking more in terms of offshoring cash or profits to avoid U.S taxes.


I do not want to speak for Wolf, but I assume he was referring to International Economics and the global economy, not just imports.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by ZZman
You miss the point of Government. It is about people not profit. It is to redistribute $ around for the betterment of society as a whole.

Only if you believe in socialism / communism. Which has never worked yet. And seeing as you are so convinced it's the economic answer to your prayers, why don't you move to a socialistic country? With your attitude of giving, they'll be none too happy to have you. Then you can exist in a country that you believe is such an economic utopia. Instead of pushing for the ruination of this one. Be sure to say hello to Castro or Maduro for me when you get there.


I do think I would like places like Canada and the Scandinavian countries.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by ZZman
You miss the point of Government. It is about people not profit. It is to redistribute $ around for the betterment of society as a whole.

Only if you believe in socialism / communism. Which has never worked yet. And seeing as you are so convinced it's the economic answer to your prayers, why don't you move to a socialistic country? With your attitude of giving, they'll be none too happy to have you. Then you can exist in a country that you believe is such an economic utopia. Instead of pushing for the ruination of this one. Be sure to say hello to Castro or Maduro for me when you get there.


I do think I would like places like Canada and the Scandinavian countries.


Whoa there. Canada isn't "full" socialism either. We have socialized medicine, true, and we pay for that. But we have also elected morons who, similar to what the US experienced, have been over-spendy with money they don't have, expecting future generations to deal with it, to deliver increases in social programs that are popular with the voters. That's why Ontario is over 320 billion in debt right now and pays $1 billion a month in interest.

You then have these same people flying off the handle when cuts are proposed to reign in the deficit spending, because they don't want to think about the financial security of the province; its mounting debt, they just want their "free" services. This leads to bonehead moves like selling 50% of the publicly owned electricity distributor for 4 billion (a whopping 4 months of interest payments) to reduce the deficit for one budget year to make the books look better, while screwing everybody going forward by eliminating 50% of the revenue from that source, which generated >$1 billion a year. The same people crying about healthcare budgets not being big enough and the rise in "hallway medicine" don't realize that government pandering to these same folk has resulted in >12 billion a year NOT going to the healthcare, or education or...etc budgets because it's paying bloody interest and that coming back from that is going to be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, because the majority will never vote for the necessary cuts and accommodations to make it possible.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL


Whoa there. Canada isn't "full" socialism either. We have socialized medicine, true, and we pay for that. But we have also elected morons who, similar to what the US experienced, have been over-spendy with money they don't have, expecting future generations to deal with it, to deliver increases in social programs that are popular with the voters. That's why Ontario is over 320 billion in debt right now and pays $1 billion a month in interest.

You then have these same people flying off the handle when cuts are proposed to reign in the deficit spending, because they don't want to think about the financial security of the province; its mounting debt, they just want their "free" services. This leads to bonehead moves like selling 50% of the publicly owned electricity distributor for 4 billion (a whopping 4 months of interest payments) to reduce the deficit for one budget year to make the books look better, while screwing everybody going forward by eliminating 50% of the revenue from that source, which generated >$1 billion a year. The same people crying about healthcare budgets not being big enough and the rise in "hallway medicine" don't realize that government pandering to these same folk has resulted in >12 billion a year NOT going to the healthcare, or education or...etc budgets because it's paying bloody interest and that coming back from that is going to be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, because the majority will never vote for the necessary cuts and accommodations to make it possible.


True, there is no free. Someone has to pay for it. Do you either make the hard choices and raise taxes, cut spending, or some combo.

Most people when they think socialism and like the thought of it really mean democratic socialism which still has captitalism.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by ZZman
You miss the point of Government. It is about people not profit. It is to redistribute $ around for the betterment of society as a whole.

Only if you believe in socialism / communism. Which has never worked yet. And seeing as you are so convinced it's the economic answer to your prayers, why don't you move to a socialistic country? With your attitude of giving, they'll be none too happy to have you. Then you can exist in a country that you believe is such an economic utopia. Instead of pushing for the ruination of this one. Be sure to say hello to Castro or Maduro for me when you get there.


Your rants are fun, but you seem to miss the point that the government also helps the rich get where they are. You don't have one without the other. They also broke up monopolies. Apple wouldn't be around today if Microsoft wasn't afraid that the government was going to come down hard on them. They actually fed Apple a lifeline at one point. You can't be both pro business using their influence to increase profits and also against the people using their influence to increase their wages.
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by ZZman


I wasn't talking imports. I was talking more in terms of offshoring cash or profits to avoid U.S taxes.


I do not want to speak for Wolf, but I assume he was referring to International Economics and the global economy, not just imports.


Right. And there's nothing really wrong with offshoring. That's basically money companies made in other countries and have declined to bring those profits back to the US. Would be the same if they weren't us companies. Because the tax rate was lowered, they did end up bringing back a lot of that money.
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by ZZman


I wasn't talking imports. I was talking more in terms of offshoring cash or profits to avoid U.S taxes.


I do not want to speak for Wolf, but I assume he was referring to International Economics and the global economy, not just imports.


Right. And there's nothing really wrong with offshoring. That's basically money companies made in other countries and have declined to bring those profits back to the US. Would be the same if they weren't us companies. Because the tax rate was lowered, they did end up bringing back a lot of that money.


Hi, OK got it. I assumed the use of 'offshore' as moving work done in higher cost locations to lower cost ones, i.e. call centers in Bangalore. Your are referring to holding cash earned overseas to not be subject to the US tax, repatriation of such etc. That is a long discussion, look up 'Double Irish'. Just thinking about it and my head is starting to get that dull ache I always got when walking to the Tax Department...:)
 
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Originally Posted by Wolf359


Right. And there's nothing really wrong with offshoring. That's basically money companies made in other countries and have declined to bring those profits back to the US. Would be the same if they weren't us companies. Because the tax rate was lowered, they did end up bringing back a lot of that money.


I guess Corporate Patriotism is just a fantasy. Maximize profits to give to shareholders, not to America.
 
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Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by Wolf359


Right. And there's nothing really wrong with offshoring. That's basically money companies made in other countries and have declined to bring those profits back to the US. Would be the same if they weren't us companies. Because the tax rate was lowered, they did end up bringing back a lot of that money.


I guess Corporate Patriotism is just a fantasy. Maximize profits to give to shareholders, not to America.


I don't see that in the charter anywhere. Basic operations of corporations is to maximize profits for shareholders, not increase the amount of taxes that they pay to the country. Corporations use services provided by government and it is only fitting that they pay for those services. As to what the amount should be, well that's the function of government and democracy. Corporations exist all over the world and function under different governments, but the basic philosophy of all corporations is to maximize shareholder value.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
I guess Corporate Patriotism is just a fantasy. Maximize profits to give to shareholders, not to America.


Given a choice between giving profits to Americans who own shares vs giving those profits to the American government, wouldn't giving it to Americans be the more patriotic option?

The US government can waste any amount of money you give it. Just look at the 'high-speed rail' fiasco.
 
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