If HPL was NOT a sponsor here then how would it truly compare to other boutique oils like redline and Amsoil? What makes HPL different and special?

[Tachyon]

Wow. It’s like you didn’t read most of the posts in this thread.

Most of what you say in your points is conventional wisdom, your belief, and dispelled by multiple posts.

I don’t have time to rehash all the arguments, but your reasoning is flawed, it’s misapplied.

Or, should I chill, because this is a:

Personal Opinion: A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.

Hey Astro14,

I appreciate your engagement in this discussion. It's evident that we all have our perspectives and beliefs when it comes to the topic at hand. I remember mentioning the "chill" aspect in a previous conversation, and I see you've borrowed it here.

To address your comment, I believe that every opinion, including mine and yours, is based on our experiences, research, and understanding. While I respect your viewpoint, I'd like to emphasize that our discussions should be grounded in constructive feedback and shared knowledge. Let's remember that we're all here to learn and share, not to undermine each other.

Let's continue this conversation with an open mind and a mutual respect for each other's opinions. After all, isn't that what makes forums like this so valuable?

Cheers!

 

[TiGeo]

Hey Astro14,

I appreciate your engagement in this discussion. It's evident that we all have our perspectives and beliefs when it comes to the topic at hand. I remember mentioning the "chill" aspect in a previous conversation, and I see you've borrowed it here.

To address your comment, I believe that every opinion, including mine and yours, is based on our experiences, research, and understanding. While I respect your viewpoint, I'd like to emphasize that our discussions should be grounded in constructive feedback and shared knowledge. Let's remember that we're all here to learn and share, not to undermine each other.

Let's continue this conversation with an open mind and a mutual respect for each other's opinions. After all, isn't that what makes forums like this so valuable?

Cheers!

From the new member that has in multiple threads cited that oils such as Amsoil and HPL are primarily purchased and used for ego reasons..."Gucci Valvoline" you called it. Not much mutual respect in that.

Then you post this w/r to a gear oil discussion recently:

 

[edyvw]

@Tachyon

Availability & Shipping Cost:
You've rightly pointed out that brands like HPL and Amsoil may not be as readily available in local stores as mainstream brands. However, while convenience is crucial, it's vital to not mistake wider availability with quality. Many top-tier oils are available at local stores because they've been tested extensively and have a broader market trust. And, with global e-commerce networks, availability is becoming less of a problem. In the end, shipping costs aren't the sole measure of an oil's worth.

Oil brands available in local stores are brands that have decades of recognition. They can maybe offer huge discounts to stores, or stores cut prices where they might be losing money in order to get a customer in and buy something else (think Costco Hot Dog).

Approvals & Certifications:
It's a mistake to dismiss API certifications and other OEM approvals as just 'low bars.' These certifications are the result of extensive research and collaboration between auto manufacturers, lubricant producers, and other stakeholders. They ensure that the oil meets a certain minimum standard, yes, but that standard isn't necessarily low. Many mainstream brands exceed these standards; they don't just meet the bare minimum. The certifications also help in maintaining a level playing field in the industry.

API is basically the lobbying arm of the oil industry. In the end of 80s and the beginning of 90s it became so bad that European car manufacturers decided to start their own association ACEA, as API could not (did not want to) deliver what manufacturers wanted.

"Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
The assertion that brands outside of API constraints use superior materials and additives is a sweeping generalization. There are reasons certain chemicals aren't approved – often they might not be long-term safe for engines, might harm emission systems, or have other side effects. Just because a compound isn't approved by the API doesn't mean it's superior.

There is no doubt that sometimes there is some dubious marketing, bcs. everyone is trying to make some money. But, HPL, Amsoil, Redline, etc. are known brands that won't just like that pack something in that could damage your catalytic converter or whatever.
Also, you have many oils that are approved by manufacturers but do not have API approval. Until recently Mobil1 ESP line did not have API approval. It did not need as intended customers were drivers of Euro cars. So, who are the intended customers? Motul 300V is regarded as probably best racing oil, and does not have a single approval, including API. Do you think it will cause problems?

Incentive to Formulate to a Minimum Standard:
This is a flawed assumption. Leading oil brands invest millions in R&D to develop high-quality products that not only meet but often exceed standards. Their reputation is on the line. While there might be brands that do the bare minimum, it's misleading to paint the entire industry with that brush

Exactly, reputation! Shell employs 88,000 people and has a revenue of $381mlrd. Amsoil employs 315 people according to Wikipedia. HPL is probably less. So what do you think whose reputation os going to suffer more if something is wrong with the oil in the bottle?

.

• HPL's Superior Standards:
  It's your prerogative to choose HPL, but it's crucial to base that choice on factual data. A brand stepping "outside the box" doesn't automatically make it superior. One needs empirical evidence, performance data, and extensive testing to make such claims. Where is the proof that their standards are “way above API’s ceiling”?

We have numerous factual data here on this forum. You are new member, you will catch up.

 

[Mainia]

I know nothing about oil besides the fact that I live in Houston and that some oils I use to cook my fries.

Now, this board as any other hobby board tends to devolve into a herd mentality and cultish behavior. Eventually everyone parrots others without knowing why. AutoRX, MMO, oil catch cans in modern cars anyone?

Now that being said; I highly respect HPL and I will purchase their product once I am financially stable. But my question boils down to basically: "what makes them different from other boutique oils like Amsoil, Redline, Motul, Royal Puke or Bobs backyard moonshine blend?" And "how will they improve my vehicle performance/longevity over major brand synthetics like M1, Penzoil Ultra?"

I guess I would not call Motul a boutique oil company.

 

[Tachyon]

From the new member that has in multiple threads cited that oils such as Amsoil and HPL are primarily purchased and used for ego reasons..."Gucci Valvoline" you called it. Not much mutual respect in that.

Then you post this w/r to a gear oil discussion recently:
View attachment 176981

Firstly, I'd like to clarify a few things. My comment about AMSOIL being "Gucci Valvoline" was a tongue-in-cheek remark, and I stand by it. It was not meant to undermine the quality or performance of the product but rather to address the perception and branding of certain oils.

I'd also like to set the record straight: I have never spoken negatively about @High Performance Lubricants. My overarching point was that some individuals might choose boutique oils more for the prestige than their technical merits. This is not a direct criticism of the oils themselves but rather an observation on consumer behavior.

I value the insights and experiences of all members on this forum, including yours. My intention is to engage in meaningful discussions, share knowledge, and learn from others. Let's keep our conversations constructive and avoid making assumptions about each other's intentions.

 

[Tachyon]

@Tachyon


Oil brands available in local stores are brands that have decades of recognition. They can maybe offer huge discounts to stores, or stores cut prices where they might be losing money in order to get a customer in and buy something else (think Costco Hot Dog).




API is basically the lobbying arm of the oil industry. In the end of 80s and the beginning of 90s it became so bad that European car manufacturers decided to start their own association ACEA, as API could not (did not want to) deliver what manufacturers wanted.


There is no doubt that sometimes there is some dubious marketing, bcs. everyone is trying to make some money. But, HPL, Amsoil, Redline, etc. are known brands that won't just like that pack something in that could damage your catalytic converter or whatever.
Also, you have many oils that are approved by manufacturers but do not have API approval. Until recently Mobil1 ESP line did not have API approval. It did not need as intended customers were drivers of Euro cars. So, who are the intended customers? Motul 300V is regarded as probably best racing oil, and does not have a single approval, including API. Do you think it will cause problems?



Exactly, reputation! Shell employs 88,000 people and has a revenue of $381mlrd. Amsoil employs 315 people according to Wikipedia. HPL is probably less. So what do you think whose reputation os going to suffer more if something is wrong with the oil in the bottle?


We have numerous factual data here on this forum. You are new member, you will catch up.

edyvw,

Thank you for taking the time to address my points. Let's delve into them:

1. Availability & Shipping Cost:
   While e-commerce has indeed bridged the gap in product accessibility, the point I was making is about the perception of value. Just because a product is less available doesn't make it inherently superior.
   
   
2. Approvals & Certifications:
   I respect the role of API and other certifications. My intention was not to dismiss them but to highlight that they are a baseline. Many products exceed these standards, and it's essential to recognize that.
   
   
3. "Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
   I stand by my assertion. While brands like HPL, Amsoil, and Redline have their merits, it's crucial to approach claims critically. Not every non-API approved compound is superior, and it's essential to differentiate marketing from factual benefits.
   
   
4. Incentive to Formulate to a Minimum Standard:
   The scale of a company doesn't necessarily correlate with the quality of its products. Both large corporations and smaller brands have their strengths and challenges. Reputation is built over time and through consistent product quality.
   
   
5. HPL's Superior Standards: I appreciate the call for empirical evidence. It's a valid point, and I believe that every claim should be backed by data. My comments were based on the information available to me, and I'm always open to revising my stance based on new evidence.

In conclusion, I value this discussion and the opportunity to clarify my views.

 

[Astro14]

This is an example of your faulty statements:

"Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
I stand by my assertion. While brands like HPL, Amsoil, and Redline have their merits, it's crucial to approach claims critically. Not every non-API approved compound is superior, and it's essential to differentiate marketing from factual benefits.

This is false. Verifiably. It is your opinion that HPL is using “non-API approved” components - when in fact, that is wrong.

You have made an assumption that without API approval of the final formula that every single component in the formulation must be “non-approved”.

Those components are used by a variety of companies that do in fact get API approvals. The difference is that there is “the good stuff“ and “the cheap stuff.” in particular, star polymer VII. It’s better, more shear stable, than the VII used by most companies. So, the cheap stuff gets your API cert.

So, a company like HPL chose to use the good stuff. They didn’t bother getting the API approval because frankly you, the consumer, are a tiny fraction of 1% of their business.

Why should they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars getting an approval just for your satisfaction when over 99% of their business is to large entities with large fleets that are very, very happy with their performance.

I get tired of repeating myself in these threads, where a new member (you) comes along, makes a bunch of assumptions, most of which are wrong, and then I have to spend time repeating things that have already been said.

It would be nice if you actually read through the entire thread, and listened to the posters that made the point that I just did above, instead of just throwing out a bunch of faulty assumptions, and sloppy thinking based on your preconceptions.

 

[TiGeo]

Let's keep our conversations constructive and avoid making assumptions about each other's intentions.

Easiest thing to do is follow your own advice - I'm not having any issues so "let's keep our" doesn't apply here. You've posted in multiple threads about boutique oils being "over-hyped" and seem to not be a fan of Amsoil. So now all your posts end with things like "let's keep convos constructive", "let move forward" etc. Again, just follow your own advice, keep it factual or even just "I don't like Amsoil b/c of the MLM nature of it" vs. saying it's not a quality product. What was your former username here, I can't place it....

 

[Tachyon]

This is an example of your faulty statements:

"Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
I stand by my assertion. While brands like HPL, Amsoil, and Redline have their merits, it's crucial to approach claims critically. Not every non-API approved compound is superior, and it's essential to differentiate marketing from factual benefits.

This is false. Verifiably. It is your opinion that HPL is using “non-API approved” components - when in fact, that is wrong.

You have made an assumption that without API approval of the final formula that every single component in the formulation must be “non-approved”.

Those components are used by a variety of companies that do in fact get API approvals. The difference is that there is “the good stuff“ and “the cheap stuff.” in particular, star polymer VII. It’s better, more shear stable, than the VII used by most companies. So, the cheap stuff gets your API cert.

So, a company like HPL chose to use the good stuff. They didn’t bother getting the API approval because frankly you, the consumer, are a tiny fraction of 1% of their business.

Why should they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars getting an approval just for your satisfaction when over 99% of their business is to large entities with large fleets that are very, very happy with their performance.

I get tired of repeating myself in these threads, where a new member (you) comes along, makes a bunch of assumptions, most of which are wrong, and then I have to spend time repeating things that have already been said.

It would be nice if you actually read through the entire thread, and listened to the posters that made the point that I just did above, instead of just throwing out a bunch of faulty assumptions, and sloppy thinking based on your preconceptions.

Your points are noted. It's essential to clarify that my comments were based on a broader perspective of the industry and not solely on HPL. The distinction between individual components being API-approved and the final formula's certification is understood. However, it's also crucial to approach these discussions with an open mind, recognizing that every member brings a unique perspective based on their experiences and research.

While I respect the depth of knowledge present in this forum, it's equally important to ensure that discussions remain objective and fact-based.

As for API licensing...

URL: https://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/application-and-fees#tab-fees

 

[Tachyon]

Easiest thing to do is follow your own advice - I'm not having any issues so "let's keep our" doesn't apply here. You've posted in multiple threads about boutique oils being "over-hyped" and seem to not be a fan of Amsoil. So now all your posts end with things like "let's keep convos constructive", "let move forward" etc. Again, just follow your own advice, keep it factual or even just "I don't like Amsoil b/c of the MLM nature of it" vs. saying it's not a quality product. What was your former username here, I can't place it....

I appreciate your feedback. Let's address a few points:

1. Terminology:
   My use of the term "Gucci Valvoline" was a metaphorical expression to highlight the premium perception of certain oils. It was not intended to diminish the quality of any brand, including Amsoil. It's essential to differentiate between a critique of branding and a critique of product quality.
2. Respect:
   Mutual respect is paramount in any discussion. My comments are based on my observations and research. While I may have a different perspective, it doesn't invalidate yours or anyone else's. Let's focus on the topic at hand rather than making it personal.
3. Previous Usernames:
   I am here under the username @Tachyon, and any insinuation of previous identities is speculative. Let's keep our discussions factual.

In conclusion, I'm here to engage in constructive discussions about oils, their properties, and their performance. Let's keep our conversations centered on the topic and avoid veering into personal territories.

 

[kschachn]

Previous Usernames:

1. I am here under the username @Tachyon, and any insinuation of previous identities is speculative. Let's keep our discussions factual.

Lol. Couldn’t be more affirmative.

 

[Astro14]

Your points are noted. It's essential to clarify that my comments were based on a broader perspective of the industry and not solely on HPL. The distinction between individual components being API-approved and the final formula's certification is understood. However, it's also crucial to approach these discussions with an open mind, recognizing that every member brings a unique perspective based on their experiences and research.

While I respect the depth of knowledge present in this forum, it's equally important to ensure that discussions remain objective and fact-based.

As for API licensing...

URL: https://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/application-and-fees#tab-fees

View attachment 177017

Doesn’t change the logic - why would a company seek certifications when fewer than 1% of their customers would even be interested in them.

The number of consumers who already buy HPL (like me) are happy.

So, how many sales would come from these certifications? It’s near zero. Fractions of one percent. Fewer than one percent of sales now are to consumers and most of them are happy.

The tiny fringe asking for certifications aren’t really future customers, they’re those who are seeking talking points on which to base their criticism.

It would be a grossly negative ROI to seek those certifications when, again, greater than 99% of sales are to large entities, race teams, and others who have no need of certifications and the fringe wasn’t serious about buying anyway.

As far as open mind?

You’re the one that jumps in to threads, fails to read what’s been said, makes assumptions, and then makes posts predicated on these mistakes.

I’ve kept an open mind about your posts, assuming good intent on your part, but if you continue being deliberately obtuse, and controversial, it will be hard to avoid the conclusion that you’re trolling.

 

[02zx9r rev2]

I don’t use HPL as I can’t justify the cost and I change my oil around 5K miles give or take, so as other have mentioned before, it would not be beneficial for me money wise. I’m sure they will be just fine financially going forward if I am not a customer.

Everything I have read and seen posted about them shows they are top notch and no one really has anything bad to say about them. Their oils aren’t for everyone and they know that and are apparently ok with that.

I’ve used Amsoil oils before and know they are a top notch company as well. I don’t use their oils anymore for the same reasons mentioned above, but I do use their CVT fluid and will continue to do so. If HPL ever came out with a CVT fluid I would be interested.

A part of me can’t help but wonder would everyone be coming to HPL’s defense on here if they weren’t a sponsor. Again, nothing bad to say about them at all. Just don’t see any other oil brand being defended on here like HPL

 

[buster]

As someone that values testing and approved lubricants, I can make an exception with HPL and Amsoil. I have 100% trust in their products. Both are top notch. The rest of the boutique world, meh no so much.

 

[OVERKILL]

If you've been on this board long enough (even just lurking, ignoring for the moment that you may be a previous member, given the familiarity with past topics) to be familiar with AutoRX, then you've certainly been around long enough to see the threads on Dr. Rudnick and the various HPL oil filter C&P's, Dave blending folks custom oils...etc.

Dave went out of his way to get an entire product line designed for the folks that didn't want any VII in their finished lube. Who does that?

So yeah, that's gained them some popularity on here, popularity that I think would be just as strong if they weren't a sponsor, because being a sponsor didn't require them to do all of this stuff for the membership.

A part of me can’t help but wonder would everyone be coming to HPL’s defense on here if they weren’t a sponsor. Again, nothing bad to say about them at all. Just don’t see any other oil brand being defended on here like HPL

I think my above quote, mentioning what Dave has done for the board, answers that question. We've never had another oil company, sponsor or not, engage in this way.

 

[Vorlauf]

@Tachyon

It seems that your statements are based on YOUR perception of these products vs factual evidence. Nobody really knows how a product is perceived by others without tapping into their consciousness. You can only guess based off of YOUR observations. This becomes your perspective. While prestige is usually based on merit, it is still just a perception. Your "tongue-in-cheek remark" about Amsoil could be viewed as a positive or a negative depending on how one feels about Gucci or Valvoline. However, I'm going to assume it was just snarky.

As for this,

HPL's Superior Standards: I appreciate the call for empirical evidence. It's a valid point, and I believe that every claim should be backed by data. My comments were based on the information available to me, and I'm always open to revising my stance based on new evidence.

I'm not sure you've found all the information available about these products yet, & may have jumped the gun with your comments.

 

[Astro14]

I don’t use HPL as I can’t justify the cost and I change my oil around 5K miles give or take, so as other have mentioned before, it would not be beneficial for me money wise. I’m sure they will be just fine financially going forward if I am not a customer.

Everything I have read and seen posted about them shows they are top notch and no one really has anything bad to say about them. Their oils aren’t for everyone and they know that and are apparently ok with that.

I’ve used Amsoil oils before and know they are a top notch company as well. I don’t use their oils anymore for the same reasons mentioned above, but I do use their CVT fluid and will continue to do so. If HPL ever came out with a CVT fluid I would be interested.

A part of me can’t help but wonder would everyone be coming to HPL’s defense on here if they weren’t a sponsor. Again, nothing bad to say about them at all. Just don’t see any other oil brand being defended on here like HPL

You see causality (sponsorship = defense) where there is only correlation.

It’s been discussed at length. They are a sponsor.

They get defended because they make an excellent product, they offer excellent customer service when ordering, they have made formulations just for folks on the board. Those are documented events, noted by dozens of people on this board and elsewhere. Those qualities have nothing to do with sponsorship.

So, there is correlation, but not causality.

 

[Brian123]

The Members that are coming to HPL's Defense are the ones who have used the Product and liked it. The ones saying negative things are the ones who have not used HPL's products.

 

[02zx9r rev2]

I think my above quote, mentioning what Dave has done for the board, answers that question. We've never had another oil company, sponsor or not, engage in this way.

I must have missed that part. Very true. Thank you

 

[DirectRejection]

I think my above quote, mentioning what Dave has done for the board, answers that question. We've never had another oil company, sponsor or not, engage in this way.

I have used the 0W16 HDEO and 0W8 PP flavors for many, many miles.

There have been successive UOAs posted, understanding that limits on reading results exist.

I am another satisfied customer of HPL.

There is nothing fluffy coming from this "fanboy."

Thank you OVERKILL for speaking truth to trollish vibe tendancies.