If HPL was NOT a sponsor here then how would it truly compare to other boutique oils like redline and Amsoil? What makes HPL different and special?

[buster]

I think people forget how good modern synthetics are today. If you don't need a lot of ZDP, most of your mainstream synthetics are pretty good. It's not 1995 anymore.

You do see some advantages with HPL/Amsoil/M1 EP over longer drain intervals. Wear is rarely different among brands.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

True and it really depends on the vehicle, engine type, how it's used etc.

I'd be willing to bet Mobil 1 can keep an engine as clean as Red Line and also out last Red Line. I would put HPL/Amsoil in a higher tier than off the shelf Mobil 1.

Completely agree. It's hard to make any case for some of the advanced coatings in a refurbishment setting for today's engines. Turbo/supercharged engines are likely the one case where you can justify more coatings during a rebuild these days; the few N/A engines likely just need bearings done (I forgot about coated cam bearings! D'oh!).

Anything boosted, you definitely start justifying hard-anodized ring lands, and gas ported rings, and yada yada yada pretty quickly. It's all dependent on the final state of the engine... I saw a 3.5 Eco that was done for max-effort, time slip glory... and it probably had $5k of ceramic coatings, all-in. The roller followers were coated. The piston domes done. The underside of the pistons done with a heat transfer & lubricity coating so the oil transferred heat out of the piston but didn't stick to it and add mass... the block insides and windage tray done with lubricant-shedding coating. Turbos disassembled and bearings treated; hot and cold side housings treated with thermal barriers and emissivity boosters respectively... it gets wild, quickly.

And yes, I agree with you. I won't say anything bad about Red Line because it's been years since I've used their products... but it almost feels like they're in the post-Calumet-sale Royal Purple boat. I've never been a Mobil 1 fanboy but I know they have some solid products. Amsoil seems to be pushing itself more mainstream and I hope they don't lose their identity. And HPL, well... let's just say I know who I'm spending my lubricant money with. I've even got HPL in my zero-turn these days...

I have my favorites, and it's fine that other people have theirs, and that not all of our tastes are the same. The great thing we should applaud, though, is that we have ALL these great choices in high-end engine oils!!

 

[DirectRejection]

The theme of this site. If you drive a normal car in normal conditions follow the owner's manual and buy a synthetic you've heard of. It'll be fine. If you enjoy amateur science and data (or professional) run the stuff you don't need to and geek out over it. HPL and others probably are *better* than the NAPA "on sale synthetic" or Costco or Super Tech or Quaker State or Mobil 1 I may choose to run. But I'm confident my Toyota engine will still easily push 300k regardless. And it'll be 15-20 years old at that point and it'll be about time to pass it along to someone else.

LOL.
"...probably..."

 

[mr_boring]

Isn't that the way it is with every product? Once a certain point is reached, each step of improvement becomes smaller and more expensive to achieve. To some, those improvements are worth the cost.

Absolutely; and it's a free world, or it is when it comes to what the consumer chooses to procure.

I know people who will buy a Colt or a Kimber 1911 and then spend another 3k on it to make it better. Me - I can't shoot the darn things well enough to justify that much more work being done nor can I REALLY tell the difference when I pull the trigger. I just say, oh - nice.

 

[Tachyon]

Absolutely

I know people who will buy a Colt or a Kimber 1911 and then spend another 3k on it to make it better. Me - I can't shoot the darn things well enough to justify that much more work being done nor can I REALLY tell the difference when I pull the trigger.

Or those who buy a Glock for $600~$700 and spend $2K to "improve it".

 

[4WD]

What‘s the test called for slowly thickens to offset fuel dilution?

 

[wemay]

One part of being a fan boy: They disagree/dispute everything that's said negatively about their "idol" (be it Amsoil, HPL, Apple, Ford, etc).

Another: They repeat stories, usually starting with "I heard....", but have zero personal or hands-on experience with the specific matter.

Or, defend a choice by sharing their positive experiences versus those who detract, never having used the product or citing articles to exaggerate an issue.

 

[RDY4WAR]

There's drawbacks to brands like HPL, Amsoil, and Red Line. The lack of availability locally is one, the cost of shipping is another (though Amsoil offers free shipping above a certain amount, I think), and few approvals and certifications for those who care about that. The pros is more personal customer service, better transparency, and higher quality lubricants not constrained by approvals and certifications or price competition on the Walmart shelf. Those of us who use these brands of oil have decided the pros far outweigh the cons. Others will see the cons as a bigger issue. It's when people start attacking the pros over their annoyance of the cons that it becomes a problem.

Each person's pros and cons will differ. For example, I view API certifications (and some OEM approvals) as cons quite often as I feel they set too low of a bar for engine protection, give too much priority to marginal specs, create ceilings in performance through restriction of specific chemistry, and (inadvertently) incentivize brands to formulate to a minimum standard at the lowest production cost. For me, HPL is an ideal choice because they aren't constrained by that little API box. Instead, they step way outside that box and use better materials and additive chemistry that API tends to prohibit. Their standard is way above API's ceiling. Others won't see it that way and that's fine. I'm not going to force someone to use HPL, but I will get defensive if you try to say they suck simply because you can't get 20 gallons of them on rebate at your local parts store or they refuse to substantially lower their standards to API level to please someone that was never going to be a customer anyway.

 

[oil pan 4]

Can't do extended drains on a gdi engine, especially a hybrid so pp is fine.

 

[spasm3]

Can't do extended drains on a gdi engine, especially a hybrid so pp is fine.

With my mazda, my plan is to run the HPL from about Feb or March till the end of Nov. Then use m1 0w-40 from dec til march, for the winter fuel dilution, and change that out spring for HPL.

We only put about 5k or so a year on it, so i think leaving HPL for all but winter months works.

 

[oil pan 4]

With my mazda, my plan is to run the HPL from about Feb or March till the end of Nov. Then use m1 0w-40 from dec til march, for the winter fuel dilution, and change that out spring for HPL.

We only put about 5k or so a year on it, so i think leaving HPL for all but winter months works.

Yeah winter fuel dilution and shear thins my 5w-20 down to like 0w-16 by as little as 4,000 miles.

 

[Kalle.J]

Ohh boy NC and NM talking about winter .
But yeah with longish OCI @ 6-7k with E85 frequently and real winter is why I run 0/5W-40.

 

[Tachyon]

There's drawbacks to brands like HPL, Amsoil, and Red Line. The lack of availability locally is one, the cost of shipping is another (though Amsoil offers free shipping above a certain amount, I think), and few approvals and certifications for those who care about that. The pros is more personal customer service, better transparency, and higher quality lubricants not constrained by approvals and certifications or price competition on the Walmart shelf. Those of us who use these brands of oil have decided the pros far outweigh the cons. Others will see the cons as a bigger issue. It's when people start attacking the pros over their annoyance of the cons that it becomes a problem.

Each person's pros and cons will differ. For example, I view API certifications (and some OEM approvals) as cons quite often as I feel they set too low of a bar for engine protection, give too much priority to marginal specs, create ceilings in performance through restriction of specific chemistry, and (inadvertently) incentivize brands to formulate to a minimum standard at the lowest production cost. For me, HPL is an ideal choice because they aren't constrained by that little API box. Instead, they step way outside that box and use better materials and additive chemistry that API tends to prohibit. Their standard is way above API's ceiling. Others won't see it that way and that's fine. I'm not going to force someone to use HPL, but I will get defensive if you try to say they suck simply because you can't get 20 gallons of them on rebate at your local parts store or they refuse to substantially lower their standards to API level to please someone that was never going to be a customer anyway.

Your post is quite passionate about HPL and brands outside of the mainstream domain, and I commend your loyalty. But there are a few misconceptions in your argument that need to be addressed. Let’s tackle them one by one.

1. Availability & Shipping Cost:
   You've rightly pointed out that brands like HPL and Amsoil may not be as readily available in local stores as mainstream brands. However, while convenience is crucial, it's vital to not mistake wider availability with quality. Many top-tier oils are available at local stores because they've been tested extensively and have a broader market trust. And, with global e-commerce networks, availability is becoming less of a problem. In the end, shipping costs aren't the sole measure of an oil's worth.
   
   
2. Approvals & Certifications:
   It's a mistake to dismiss API certifications and other OEM approvals as just 'low bars.' These certifications are the result of extensive research and collaboration between auto manufacturers, lubricant producers, and other stakeholders. They ensure that the oil meets a certain minimum standard, yes, but that standard isn't necessarily low. Many mainstream brands exceed these standards; they don't just meet the bare minimum. The certifications also help in maintaining a level playing field in the industry.
   
   
3. "Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
   The assertion that brands outside of API constraints use superior materials and additives is a sweeping generalization. There are reasons certain chemicals aren't approved – often they might not be long-term safe for engines, might harm emission systems, or have other side effects. Just because a compound isn't approved by the API doesn't mean it's superior.
   
   
4. Incentive to Formulate to a Minimum Standard:
   This is a flawed assumption. Leading oil brands invest millions in R&D to develop high-quality products that not only meet but often exceed standards. Their reputation is on the line. While there might be brands that do the bare minimum, it's misleading to paint the entire industry with that brush.
   
   
5. HPL's Superior Standards:
   It's your prerogative to choose HPL, but it's crucial to base that choice on factual data. A brand stepping "outside the box" doesn't automatically make it superior. One needs empirical evidence, performance data, and extensive testing to make such claims. Where is the proof that their standards are “way above API’s ceiling”?

In the grand scheme of things, consumers must make informed choices based on objective information, not just brand loyalty. It’s great to support and advocate for a brand, but let's ensure our arguments stand on solid ground and not fallacies.

 

[Astro14]

Your post is quite passionate about HPL and brands outside of the mainstream domain, and I commend your loyalty. But there are a few misconceptions in your argument that need to be addressed. Let’s tackle them one by one.

1. Availability & Shipping Cost:
   You've rightly pointed out that brands like HPL and Amsoil may not be as readily available in local stores as mainstream brands. However, while convenience is crucial, it's vital to not mistake wider availability with quality. Many top-tier oils are available at local stores because they've been tested extensively and have a broader market trust. And, with global e-commerce networks, availability is becoming less of a problem. In the end, shipping costs aren't the sole measure of an oil's worth.
   
   
2. Approvals & Certifications:
   It's a mistake to dismiss API certifications and other OEM approvals as just 'low bars.' These certifications are the result of extensive research and collaboration between auto manufacturers, lubricant producers, and other stakeholders. They ensure that the oil meets a certain minimum standard, yes, but that standard isn't necessarily low. Many mainstream brands exceed these standards; they don't just meet the bare minimum. The certifications also help in maintaining a level playing field in the industry.
   
   
3. "Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
   The assertion that brands outside of API constraints use superior materials and additives is a sweeping generalization. There are reasons certain chemicals aren't approved – often they might not be long-term safe for engines, might harm emission systems, or have other side effects. Just because a compound isn't approved by the API doesn't mean it's superior.
   
   
4. Incentive to Formulate to a Minimum Standard:
   This is a flawed assumption. Leading oil brands invest millions in R&D to develop high-quality products that not only meet but often exceed standards. Their reputation is on the line. While there might be brands that do the bare minimum, it's misleading to paint the entire industry with that brush.
   
   
5. HPL's Superior Standards:
   It's your prerogative to choose HPL, but it's crucial to base that choice on factual data. A brand stepping "outside the box" doesn't automatically make it superior. One needs empirical evidence, performance data, and extensive testing to make such claims. Where is the proof that their standards are “way above API’s ceiling”?

In the grand scheme of things, consumers must make informed choices based on objective information, not just brand loyalty. It’s great to support and advocate for a brand, but let's ensure our arguments stand on solid ground and not fallacies.

Wow. It’s like you didn’t read most of the posts in this thread.

Most of what you say in your points is conventional wisdom, your belief, and dispelled by multiple posts.

I don’t have time to rehash all the arguments, but your reasoning is flawed, it’s misapplied.

Or, should I chill, because this is a:

Personal Opinion: A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.

 

[buster]

I'm not for one or the other. You can have great top tier approved lubricants and great boutique oils. You can also have the opposite - low performance level API certified oils and poorly formulated boutique snake oil using old technology wrapped in marketing.

Within the approved oil market there are performance levels. Many of the top tier approved oils far exceed the minimum passing requirements (ex- IIH, IVA, GM Turbo, Noack).

In the boutique world you're going with trust. I can only recommend 3 brands with full confidence - Amsoil, HPL and Red Line. I've seen quite a few small boutique brands I would never trust. While the certified brands have to comply with certain requirements and restrictions, this doesn't necessarily translate to poor quality. At the same time, you can theoretically make a superior oil using more expensive components operating outside the chemical restrictions imposed.

Amsoil and Red Line have a long-standing history of making great products. HPL is extremely transparent for an oil blender and works with a leading chemist. I highly trust all 3 of them as they are all ultra-high-end quality. I also fully trust the major blenders and their top tier products.

 

[mt23]

If HPL can clean up and keep clean the piston rings in my engine which is prone to oil consumption, even at extended intervals, it's a no brainer for me. I keep my engine for its entire useful life. A product that apparently can maintain cleanliness in piston rings is a must for me.

 

[gfh77665]

or they refuse to substantially lower their standards to API level to please someone that was never going to be a customer anyway.

That is EXACTLY what happened to RP a decade or so ago. I mean EXACTLY.

The huge, astounding difference today is, RP was unfairly beat into a bloody pulp here then, called a "junk oil" and worse, and no one wanted to defend it. If someone did dare defend it then they were attacked.

HPL is a great, great product, but its gets so much love, and defenders ready to step in if its questioned in any way. Thats a complete 180 from how the hated RP product was handled.

 

[buster]

This is how I'd envision a world where no approvals or standards existed:

 

[cheesepuffs2]

I'm not for one or the other. Within the approved oil market there are performance levels. Many of the top tier approved oils far exceed the minim passing requirement. Not sure why that is always ignored. In the boutique world you're going with trust. In that world I can only recommend 3 brands with full confidence - Amsoil, HPL and Red Line

While the certified brands have to comply with certain requirements and restrictions, this doesn't necessarily translate to poor quality. Additonally, there are many boutique brands I wouldn't ever use in my cars.

I feel the same way. There are different oils for different applications just like any other product. Sometimes you need a premium product, sometimes a discount/generic will do just fine. There's no universal "correct" oil. If I had a pro-stock drag car then I sure as heck wouldn't be running Castrol GTX, but in my daily driver I love GTX.

 

[TiGeo]

Your post is quite passionate about HPL and brands outside of the mainstream domain, and I commend your loyalty. But there are a few misconceptions in your argument that need to be addressed. Let’s tackle them one by one.

1. Availability & Shipping Cost:
   You've rightly pointed out that brands like HPL and Amsoil may not be as readily available in local stores as mainstream brands. However, while convenience is crucial, it's vital to not mistake wider availability with quality. Many top-tier oils are available at local stores because they've been tested extensively and have a broader market trust. And, with global e-commerce networks, availability is becoming less of a problem. In the end, shipping costs aren't the sole measure of an oil's worth.
   
   
2. Approvals & Certifications:
   It's a mistake to dismiss API certifications and other OEM approvals as just 'low bars.' These certifications are the result of extensive research and collaboration between auto manufacturers, lubricant producers, and other stakeholders. They ensure that the oil meets a certain minimum standard, yes, but that standard isn't necessarily low. Many mainstream brands exceed these standards; they don't just meet the bare minimum. The certifications also help in maintaining a level playing field in the industry.
   
   
3. "Better" Chemistry Outside of API:
   The assertion that brands outside of API constraints use superior materials and additives is a sweeping generalization. There are reasons certain chemicals aren't approved – often they might not be long-term safe for engines, might harm emission systems, or have other side effects. Just because a compound isn't approved by the API doesn't mean it's superior.
   
   
4. Incentive to Formulate to a Minimum Standard:
   This is a flawed assumption. Leading oil brands invest millions in R&D to develop high-quality products that not only meet but often exceed standards. Their reputation is on the line. While there might be brands that do the bare minimum, it's misleading to paint the entire industry with that brush.
   
   
5. HPL's Superior Standards:
   It's your prerogative to choose HPL, but it's crucial to base that choice on factual data. A brand stepping "outside the box" doesn't automatically make it superior. One needs empirical evidence, performance data, and extensive testing to make such claims. Where is the proof that their standards are “way above API’s ceiling”?

In the grand scheme of things, consumers must make informed choices based on objective information, not just brand loyalty. It’s great to support and advocate for a brand, but let's ensure our arguments stand on solid ground and not fallacies.

HPL provides lubricants (not just motor oil) for fleet use under contract as I understand it - that alone should indicate that regardless of certs/approvals/etc. that they provide a quality lubricant that has stood the test of extreme use...usually high mileage/long drains/lots of idling/etc. In the end it's really based on trust and connecting XYZ chemistry to ABC result which is often v. tough to measure in day-to-day use.