If HPL was NOT a sponsor here then how would it truly compare to other boutique oils like redline and Amsoil? What makes HPL different and special?

[cheesepuffs2]

Respectfully, when data is analyzed without emotion and purely relying on static rules (viscosity in grade, Fe tracking with universal averages, TBN with plenty of reserve, etc) that show the engine is not at any additional risk compared to those who change at 5k, why should I spend the money and time and create extra waste?

Like I mentioned @wwillson… there’s absolutely no difference in his engine numbers with 20k (adjusted to a per 1k average) than guys changing at 3, 6, or 10k miles. Big sumps take a lot of oil. He’s saved 6x what a regimen with a 3k interval would have consumed. That would likely be well over $300 with conventional fluids, and was matched with roughly $100 of HPL. That’s real money in pocket with zero risk. The engine is cleaner, the parts are protected (the right balance of ZDDP, moly, and other AW additives), and the engine is not “suffering” because the oil is robust enough.

Without being political, one could say using HPL to its full life, whatever that is in each application, is not only “good for the planet”, it’s saving time and labor as well. Extending UOAs brings down the “carbon cost” of an ICE. HPL makes that cost-effective and SAFE because of its chemistry!

Determining engine wear through UOAs is bunk information. You cannot track engine wear through any means except for measuring components before and after. You can have a cam lobe wearing down significantly without the UOA showing anything abnormal, it's happened to members of this very community.

People really overhype the relevance of cheap UOAs here. New oil itself is definitive cheap insurance. UOAs are not.

 

[OVERKILL]

Determining engine wear through UOAs is bunk information. You cannot track engine wear through any means except for measuring components before and after. You can have a cam lobe wearing down significantly without the UOA showing anything abnormal, it's happened to members of this very community.

People really overhype the relevance of cheap UOAs here. New oil itself is definitive cheap insurance. UOAs are not.

The purpose of UOA's is to determine the health and thus the suitability for continued use of a lubricant. That's correct, they do not allow you to "track wear", which so many have tried to do, nor do they allow you to "compare wear", another common misuse. However, I don't see @SubieRubyRoo making that claim, he just noted that as long as metals were tracking with the universal averages, which is consistent with proper use of the tool.

While UOA's are primarily about the lubricant, and its health, one can infer things about the equipment from them as well. For example, whether you have a fuel dilution problem, whether you have coolant ingress or air intake tract contamination, and, if you see a spike of a specific metal, it may be indicative of a mechanical issue that warrants investigating. We have seen this successfully used on here in the past, just as we've seen rapid failure of parts not show up on UOA's. The tool is limited in its utility in this regard, but that doesn't make it totally useless.

 

[DirectRejection]

But I've got a
slug o' moly...

 

[cheesepuffs2]

The purpose of UOA's is to determine the health and thus the suitability for continued use of a lubricant. That's correct, they do not allow you to "track wear", which so many have tried to do, nor do they allow you to "compare wear", another common misuse. However, I don't see @SubieRubyRoo making that claim, he just noted that as long as metals were tracking with the universal averages, which is consistent with proper use of the tool.

While UOA's are primarily about the lubricant, and its health, one can infer things about the equipment from them as well. For example, whether you have a fuel dilution problem, whether you have coolant ingress or air intake tract contamination, and, if you see a spike of a specific metal, it may be indicative of a mechanical issue that warrants investigating. We have seen this successfully used on here in the past, just as we've seen rapid failure of parts not show up on UOA's. The tool is limited in its utility in this regard, but that doesn't make it totally useless.

I agree they aren't totally useless, I'm not saying that either. But some members here, imo, take UOA results and really run with them to an exaggerated level.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Determining engine wear through UOAs is bunk information. You cannot track engine wear through any means except for measuring components before and after. You can have a cam lobe wearing down significantly without the UOA showing anything abnormal, it's happened to members of this very community.

People really overhype the relevance of cheap UOAs here. New oil itself is definitive cheap insurance. UOAs are not.

I’m aware of the limitations of a UOA, and know that it truly only gives info on the oil’s condition, and that’s what matters in the case of extending OCIs.

As far as your cam lobe degradation, please tell me how changing the oil more often is going to prevent this? You can’t, it would only be a guess, whether or not the UOA shows the oil is serviceable. It’s the trend for that engine and engine family that will tell you something may be amiss.

I see @OVERKILL has chimed in with sage advice; I also give much credit to @dnewton3 for working tirelessly to help people take emotions out of analyzing a UOA. There are two recent examples that show this, on both sides of the same coin.

Wwillson’s UOAs are stellar at extended mileage using HPL and yet some people freak out about his results… based on emotions, rather than fact. Those who understand what the UOA is showing reaffirm his choice to continue with the oil in service. On the flip side, fusselli has had very concerning UOAs due to dilution and the data says the oil should be changed earlier or use of a heavier grade, and yet the owner ignores the data and thinks there is no issue. Given some more time, we will likely see divergent trends between these two engines if the same usage is maintained. One will likely continue tracking in line with universal averages, and one will possibly suffer a catastrophic failure common to that engine family when oil is not maintained in grade.

It’s why I went to a more robust oil that is designed to slowly thicken over time in order to offset fuel dilution. This reduces the risks of too-thin oils, and allows the user to utilize data on other points… fuel %, TBN, and Fe/1k. Emotions about the robustness of an oil in a given application has no place in the analysis; it should be saved for after the data has confirmed all is well.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

i would use if product prices were more affordable and available in more box type stores where you can purchase in cash

Use code BITOG15 for 15% off, and carefully stretch OCIs.

As far as store availability, HPL will be on your doorstep in two days that matches Amazon; if you’re not planning maintenance at least two days in advance, are you really serious about maintaining your equipment? IMO, anyone using the lack of store availability with HPL is simply throwing out an excuse rather than a real hindrance.

 

[buster]

But my question boils down to basically: "what makes them different from other boutique oils like Amsoil, Redline, Motul, Royal Puke or Bobs backyard moonshine blend?"

HPL and Red Line are the two most accessible and forthcoming when in need of product technical questions in regard to chemical composition and certain specifications.

Amsoil provides more results from industry standard testing such as IVA, IIIH, GM Turbo test.

All 3 are high end and built for extreme conditions.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

HPL and Red Line are the two most accessible and forthcoming when in need of product technical questions in regard to chemical composition and certain specifications.

Amsoil provides more results from industry standard testing such as IVA, IIIH, GM Turbo test.

All 3 are high end and built for extreme conditions.

It would be nice if we could convince XOM, Redline, Amsoil, and PUP to cover general questions here in the same manner as HPL. I know there’s plenty of proprietary data that can’t be shared, but there would be a wealth of information that could be learned from additional whitepapers and testing methods. And keep it completely technical like Dave has done- praise the good formulations, hold back on negative commentary, and let the value of each oil stand on its own merits. That would literally be oil heaven

 

[buster]

It would be nice if we could convince XOM, Redline, Amsoil, and PUP to cover general questions here in the same manner as HPL. I know there’s plenty of proprietary data that can’t be shared, but there would be a wealth of information that could be learned from additional whitepapers and testing methods. And keep it completely technical like Dave has done- praise the good formulations, hold back on negative commentary, and let the value of each oil stand on its own merits. That would literally be oil heaven

I have to say it is nice when Dave from HPL is like "we use Star polymer, PAO and ester in this grade". Red Line is similar but not even quite as open. We have to keep in mind that we're a very weird, small % of people that care this much about this topic.

Amsoil and Mobil give you some testing data, videos etc., which is good too. But limited.

However, I can also see why some companies shy away from these things simply because people can draw false conclusions based on certain specifics while ignoring the bigger picture.

 

[JHZR2]

You cannot define my words and thoughts. For ME, its a question of how much value / longevity HPL provides. That has not been directly answered yet. Its yet to be determined. You can have your question. I have mine and there is nothing you can do to change that.

It’s not going to be answered. It doesn’t get answered by any of the oils on the shelf at Walmart either, does it? So your point is moot. Again, look at the Delvac example. It’s the “million mile oil”. There’s lots of claims of industry and bench testing. But even still it’s not a guarantee that there will be any form of longevity.

What you can do is listen to others and devise your own basis of value proposition from best practices you may see. That may be to run “superior” (whatever that may be) product, do more maintenance, seek products with certain parameters or specs, etc. whatever that may be.

Nobody is going to be able to tell you that running oil an over oil b will result in x miles greater longevity. We may see certain trends, or may observe certain characteristics.

Asking a question that can’t practically be answered doesn’t entitle you to gripe about a product that has openly and honestly discussed its formulation, design, and handling process. These things amount to best practices that may or may not amount to a more favorable outcome. Only you can make a determination if these best practices are of value to you. They may or may not be. Vote with your wallet. Others will vote with theirs.

 

[#18FAN]

It’s not going to be answered. It doesn’t get answered by any of the oils on the shelf at Walmart either, does it? So your point is moot. Again, look at the Delvac example. It’s the “million mile oil”. There’s lots of claims of industry and bench testing. But even still it’s not a guarantee that there will be any form of longevity.

What you can do is listen to others and devise your own basis of value proposition from best practices you may see. That may be to run “superior” (whatever that may be) product, do more maintenance, seek products with certain parameters or specs, etc. whatever that may be.

Nobody is going to be able to tell you that running oil an over oil b will result in x miles greater longevity. We may see certain trends, or may observe certain characteristics.

Asking a question that can’t practically be answered doesn’t entitle you to gripe about a product that has openly and honestly discussed its formulation, design, and handling process. These things amount to best practices that may or may not amount to a more favorable outcome. Only you can make a determination if these best practices are of value to you. They may or may not be. Vote with your wallet. Others will vote with theirs.

I’d add the value is not just related to oil performance it also value to customer service stand point and absolutely best technical support in the business.

 

[gfh77665]

It’s not going to be answered. It doesn’t get answered by any of the oils on the shelf at Walmart either, does it?

No it does not. But they don't get the same love here either, do they? Lets be fair.

Asking a question that can’t practically be answered doesn’t entitle you to gripe about a product that has openly and honestly discussed its formulation, design, and handling process.

Gripe??? Seriously? Just asking for some "rough quantification" is GRIPING? Here is what I just posted a day or two ago:

"I sincerely think HPL products are excellent. I believe the company is top notch and is dedicated to providing a great product to the public." You really think that is "gripeing"? Come on be at least a little fair.

Vote with your wallet. Others will vote with theirs.

Exactly! Why wasn't this ever applied to Royal Purple, for example? I don't remember any mod ever voicing this before, or defending RP in any way. Why was that? Lets be fair.

 

[JHZR2]

No it does not. But they don't get the same love here either, do they? Lets be fair.

Huh?!?

Dubious you’ll find more people buying and considering HPL vs whatever variant of oil they can get OTS at Walmart. Plenty of products get lots of love. HDEOs, PP, M1 0w-40 etc.

Gripe??? Seriously? Just asking for some "rough quantification" is GRIPING? Here is what I just posted a day or two ago:

"I sincerely think HPL products are excellent. I believe the company is top notch and is dedicated to providing a great product to the public." You really think that is "gripeing"? Come on be at least a little fair.

Fair enough, gripe wasn’t the best word choice. But you are the one making the deal over all this, about “your question”, which again, can’t really be readily answered.

Exactly! Why wasn't this ever applied to Royal Purple, for example? I don't remember any mod ever voicing this before, or defending RP in any way. Why was that? Lets be fair.

I’ve voiced for a variety of products. And against others. Plenty of times I’ve voiced my dissatisfaction with redline gear and MT lives (which get a lot of their own press and favor here and elsewhere), and favor for Amsoil gear and MT lubes. Is that be sure we have an Amsoil site sponsor? No. It’s because my experiences with these products have been excellent. That’s a vast difference.

I’m not saying whether an HPL product will make a lick of difference in any application. It may or may not. I do run HPL in my 135i and Honda Accord hybrid. I have 11 other vehicles that don’t run it. I use it where I think it may make a difference. And where the info from them indicates to me that there’s a value proposition. Mods are allowed to have interest in the product du jour as much as anyone. I’ve run MMO, TCW-3, Auto-RX, Lubecontrol, Schaeffer’s, etc in the past too.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Exactly! Why wasn't this ever applied to Royal Purple, for example? I don't remember any mod ever voicing this before, or defending RP in any way. Why was that? Lets be fair.

I’ve been fair. I’ve been accused of being a Ravenol fanboy, Amsoil fanboy, PUP fanboy, HPL fanboy… the list is long. That’s because I like good oils, regardless of who is blending it. While not a fanboy of Mobil 1, I’ve bought it, used it, and even recommended it, especially the EP 10w30 and the Euro/FS 0w40.

As a matter of fact, numerous people including some mods and even HPL Dave have praised and recommended Mobil’s 0w40 as likely one of the best available oils in WM or any other place that sells oil. Sure, there are certainly preferences here, but overall bias against a product is quite rare here.

The WIX quality decline is one that comes to mind. Some have C&P’d WIX filters that look absolutely terrible, and some have never had an issue. Both sides argue WIX’s merits and failures. It’s always a give and take.

Since we’re on to taking, let’s take your opinion: do you have any negative experiences with HPL or are you simply being cautious?

 

[gfh77665]

Since we’re on to taking, let’s take your opinion: do you have any negative experiences with HPL or are you simply being cautious?

No negative at all! I'll say again: "I sincerely think HPL products are excellent. I believe the company is top notch and is dedicated to providing a great product to the public." I meant that. I wish everyone would understand I said that.

I am trying to LEARN why its so highly thought of. Apparently asking a specific question was too much for some. The strong vibe I get is "just don't go there!". IMO, the best products (of whatever) not only don't hide from scrutiny, they welcome it.

I cannot make an informed decision about this or any other product without actual, tangible information. I welcome it, if its out there.

 

[#18FAN]

No negative at all! I'll say again: "I sincerely think HPL products are excellent. I believe the company is top notch and is dedicated to providing a great product to the public." I meant that. I wish everyone would understand I said that.

I am trying to LEARN why its so highly thought of. Apparently asking a specific question was too much for some. The strong vibe I get is "just don't go there!". IMO, the best products (of whatever) not only don't hide from scrutiny, they welcome it.

I cannot make an informed decision about this or any other product without actual, tangible information. I welcome it, if its out there.

That's for you to decide nobody can answer this question for you.

 

[kschachn]

Was that enough to unhinge people to the point they hurled repetitive insults and false accusations at other human beings?

What others do with their money is their choice, correct? If I supposedly "overpay" 20K for a vehicle just because I want a BMW nameplate in my driveway, then its my business, right? Its up to ME to decide what overpaying is for me. Who are others to judge so harshly? Besides, the hate was in place well before the ad pack was changed. The ad pack was later changed to meet the latest certification, and then RP was bashed unmercifully because of that! Danged if they did, and danged if they didn't!!

I don’t recall any discussion quite that unhinged.

 

[Vorlauf]

No negative at all! I'll say again: "I sincerely think HPL products are excellent. I believe the company is top notch and is dedicated to providing a great product to the public." I meant that. I wish everyone would understand I said that.

I am trying to LEARN why its so highly thought of. Apparently asking a specific question was too much for some. The strong vibe I get is "just don't go there!". IMO, the best products (of whatever) not only don't hide from scrutiny, they welcome it.

I cannot make an informed decision about this or any other product without actual, tangible information. I welcome it, if its out there.

If you sincerely think HPL products are excellent, that the company is top notch, & dedicated to providing a great product to the public; then you have done your homework & should already know why it's so highly thought of. What else is there to LEARN if you already feel that way? Apparently you learned enough to make that statement. HPL doesn't hide anything. They provide more information about their lube compared to any other corporate giant msds you could find. When you make a decision on what oil you're going to use next, what tangible information about that oil do you have? If you're at WM & choose your next fill because of how a jug looks, or something you saw on YouTube, I wouldn't consider that credible.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

When you make a decision on what oil you're going to use next, what tangible information about that oil do you have? If you're at WM & choose your next fill because of how a jug looks, or something you saw on YouTube, I wouldn't consider that credible.

I mean, those oils on the Walmart shelf still have certs, so that does lend credibility.

 

[gfh77665]

5th , I agree with much you said, the Walmart sarcasm aside.

I buy PQIA approved oil rated SN. I know any WalMart shelf SN rated PQIA oil is a good quality certified oil that meets or exceeds
standards.