TBN depletes while your engine isn’t being used?
The point is, what good is TBN if the oil is otherwise condemned?
If HPL was NOT a sponsor here then how would it truly compare to other boutique oils like redline and Amsoil? What makes HPL different and special?
- Thread starter grammatoncleric
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The point is, what good is TBN if the oil is otherwise condemned?
No but it keeps the combustion byproducts in the sump neutralized. More time sitting is more moisture and condensation also.
I only have 5k miles on it and its a 2021.
I agree if the oil is done due to oxidative thickening, the tbn probably does not matter.
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I'm not sure why you classify your responses as counterpoints. I take no position in reference to any of those questions. It seems you lost track of the evolution of the thread.
If "answers" suits you better than "counterpoints," I stand corrected.
It is hoped my answers were the ones you were looking for.
It's about the oil.
Not sure if I fully agree with that. The exceptional cleaning capabilities of HPL have been proven on this site. Even at short intervals there can be a valuable benefit, especially for certain engine families that are prone to deposits.
JHZR2
Staff member
I’ve been on this board as long as most anyone, and have seen the fads. I’ve seen the arguments. I’ve seen the issues with getting data. Trends come and go.
The question of “how much longer will my engine last using ___?” Is one that is unfortunately next to impossible to actually answer. Sure, Delvac for example may claim it’s the million mile oil. And maybe with significant numbers of return data may be able to prove that. Choices with maintenance or product selection are much more difficult to track like that, and comes down to what gives us the highest probability of success? Sometimes that’s adherence to specs or intervals, sometimes it’s use of superior product, etc.
HPL is somewhat different. At the risk of sounding like I’m creating my own version of a sales pitch, HPL has been transparent on their own behalf, and willing to make what the hobbyists and consumers want. And they invite folks in while doing it.
How many oil manufacturers just label everything proprietary and say nothing? Even in sponsor Q&A? How many manufacturers blend options that are of interest to hobbyists on here? How many really are willing to talk? I remember Redline in the old days had a real chemist answering questions if you contacted them. Any of the majors have an applications engineer, but not a formulator. Again, HPL has been willing to provide more to this community.
Define forcing? Some folks on the board, due to proximity for some and interest for others, tried the HPL products. They posted results. As with anything, YMMV. So what? The fact that HPL, like other vendors, have been willing to come on here, is great. The fact that they will engage, and formulate,with us, is far more than the Q&A and canned responses that protect proprietary data like obe would get typically from other companies.
IMO, no. HPL didn’t just do a plant tour. They actually brought in multiple chemists/SMEs to discuss technical details. Going and seeing a facility with a bunch of tanks and analytical machines is only one part of the equation. Having real detailed technical conversations is quite different, and what HPL has provided. That plus the willingness to formulate lubes that interest folks is why HPL has developed a fan base.
The one that I always got a kick out of was the strange anger in some posts that would mention the "outrageous Amsoil sales method!"
I dont know what to think of that one?Maybe they felt a dealer tried to screw them thru over charging ? I am not now nor have ever been a dealer, only an Amsoil user/customer since the early 1990s.
These two comments are valid. Much of what gives Amsoil a bad rap with some is the fact that there are lots of two bit salesmen making claims on the net (NOT our sponsor), and, the fact that historically their products didn’t have approvals.
Bad info is bad info. When rogue Amsoil dealers pushed claims, it’s an issue. We know Amsoil has a range of great products. When folks who want to go by the book wish to use these superior products, but can’t meet their specs, it turns them off. HPL doesn’t have conduits for bad info, and they don’t hold certs, but IMO the issue of spec approvals should be viewed the same between any boutique oils that go that route. People can use the oils, or not. And if they do, there is some risk assumed due to non-adherence.
In the end, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Either the model HPL uses makes sense, and you buy the product, or not. Either is an acceptable outcome.
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HPL along with Amsoil , really do create great products,with transparency. of what they do,setting a pace for their lubricants and markets that are served. i would use if product prices were more affordable and available in more box type stores where you can purchase in cash
In your application and certain other applications your logic makes perfect sense to me.
You cannot define my words and thoughts. For ME, its a question of how much value / longevity HPL provides. That has not been directly answered yet. Its yet to be determined. You can have your question. I have mine and there is nothing you can do to change that.
That’s correct; so what is your question about how HPL provides value for you? The second half of that question, and this includes me as well… do you (or me, or whoever is asking the first question above) have the intestinal fortitude to actually answer that question?
I’ll elaborate. I’ve got a 500+rwhp 3.5 EcoBoost which 95% of owners here are changing at 5k or less. They’re fine with that. I was not. I had tried Ravenol, Amsoil, and even Pennzoil Euro. None were staying in grade at even 6k. I contacted Dave. Got his input and got enough info to make me feel comfortable. So I ran the PCEO 5w30 14,996 miles. I’m now on the No VII Euro 5w30 and will continue. @Direct_Rejection is running a 0w8 over 30,000 miles at a time. That’s a pretty extreme value.
For the ultimate in fortitude, check out @wwillson and his Duramax. The man bought a brand new Duramax, dropped the factory fill, and is now on the far side of 40k miles on just TWO oil changes! And he’s gathered enough data to show that not only is the oil capable of 20k oil changes in a hardworking diesel, it’s still got life left!
So, please… we’d like to know what your question is regarding the value proposition is. I’d love to hear another challenge!
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Respectfully, when it comes to pushing intervals especially with an engine as power-dense as your 3.5, what's the point? Some additional jugs of oil over the course of the vehicle's life is a drop in the bucket relative to total cost of ownership.
Same oil filter or changed during the interval?
It was irrational and terribly misplaced. Thing was, RP purposely decided to let their oil continuing to meet an earlier certification to allow them to have a more robust additive package. Very, very few actually understood that. With all the supposed knowledge on hand here then, it was amazing ignorance prevailed over understanding. If anything RP should have been widely appreciated for putting one of the best products on the market at that time. The hate bandwagon got rolling and too many jumped on. At that point irrationality took hold and then people loved to hate it. Mob mentality.
The much larger question is, why did that unhinge some? Why did some worry *that* much if some stranger on the 'net chose to buy RP oil with their own money?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yep, I remember those days well. I don't remember the owner of RLI coming on here and engaging with the membership though, discussing formulation and the like.
The product changed when the company was sold, right?
So, what you say about the additive package changed as well, hence the hate.
People were paying a premium price, for an oil that no longer had premium ingredients or performance.
If, for example, if my truck will last 300,000 on PP or M1, how long would it last with HPL oil? 500,000 miles? 350,000 miles? Still just 300,000 miles? I need some sort of rough quantification to answer the value question.
If the answer is then "well, not sure, but your engine will be cleaner internally", that's fine, but how much cleaner would it be than if M1 or PP was used? 50%? 10%? 0.01%? Remember even a moderately varnished engine can run flawlessly for longer than you want to keep it.
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Was that enough to unhinge people to the point they hurled repetitive insults and false accusations at other human beings?
What others do with their money is their choice, correct? If I supposedly "overpay" 20K for a vehicle just because I want a BMW nameplate in my driveway, then its my business, right? Its up to ME to decide what overpaying is for me. Who are others to judge so harshly? Besides, the hate was in place well before the ad pack was changed. The ad pack was later changed to meet the latest certification, and then RP was bashed unmercifully because of that! Danged if they did, and danged if they didn't!!
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Changed filter at 7200 and 15k. Got a little sidetracked in between. Still have the ultra to cut open; the Fram Endurance that’s currently on is almost to 6k, will be removing and cutting that one this week.
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Personally I disliked (not hated) RP based on my own personal ignorance. I used to lurk this forum for over a decade before deciding on creating an account. For all that time I didn't think I needed an account because I didn't have an issue that required an answer (now I do ... I. E. The Volvo oil burner).
Back in the day I had Toyota Corolla and an access to military base hobby shop that had a very nicely equipped bays with a lift for $8/hr of shop time. Hence I used to change all of my own fluids (not today).
I think it was 2014-15 when I was reading all those good things about RP. Lo and behold I see a 5qt or 4qt jug of RP at Walmart for $8 clearance. So I jump on it. The same day I dump my Mobil 1 2k miles fill and add RP to the Corolla.
I drive for about 4k miles but I begin to notice that the car seems to be louder and it developed a slight tick sound. So I dump RP at 4k and refill it with a new jug of RP. The tick goes away but comes back at 1k miles. SO, I say to myself "f it let's dump RP and fill it with Penzoil Ultra! ". Boom, tick goes away and doesn't come back. As a result of this experience I say to myself "****, RP really sucks! And for twice the price of P Ultra?!!!"
What I didn't know/realize is the fact that Walmart version of RP was not the offering that everyone was raving about.
Respectfully, when data is analyzed without emotion and purely relying on static rules (viscosity in grade, Fe tracking with universal averages, TBN with plenty of reserve, etc) that show the engine is not at any additional risk compared to those who change at 5k, why should I spend the money and time and create extra waste?
Like I mentioned @wwillson… there’s absolutely no difference in his engine numbers with 20k (adjusted to a per 1k average) than guys changing at 3, 6, or 10k miles. Big sumps take a lot of oil. He’s saved 6x what a regimen with a 3k interval would have consumed. That would likely be well over $300 with conventional fluids, and was matched with roughly $100 of HPL. That’s real money in pocket with zero risk. The engine is cleaner, the parts are protected (the right balance of ZDDP, moly, and other AW additives), and the engine is not “suffering” because the oil is robust enough.
Without being political, one could say using HPL to its full life, whatever that is in each application, is not only “good for the planet”, it’s saving time and labor as well. Extending UOAs brings down the “carbon cost” of an ICE. HPL makes that cost-effective and SAFE because of its chemistry!
