If dino is so good why buy Syn?

[pitzel]

I run synthetic because I can't 'bring' myself to having the stuff changed every 3-6 months that is recommended by the manufacturer/oil barons, irregardless of mileage. In 3 months, I will have driven a grand total of perhaps 1000 miles, nearly all of which is a single or two long trips.

Another thing I've noticed about synthetic is how it doesn't attract dirt when it leaks out of the engine. When I used to have dino in my engine, and my valve covers leaked onto the engine mounts, within days, the leaked dino would be caked with dirt. With synthetic, I can take a rag, months later, not soaked in varsol, and wipe the valve covers clean.

As I live in Canada, the superior cold-flow properties of synthetic oil come in handy. Also, changing the oil in the middle of the winter to satisfy an arbitrary 3k or 7.5k interval often isn't an option due to the cold (changing oil in -40C weather..is a no-go in my books), so the extra margin of error comes in handy.

Another thing about synthetics -- I have one of those dreaded GM alternators of death they used in the early 90s. If the use of synthetic oil lowers my underhood temperatures by even a couple of degrees, that could lead to significantly increased alternator life.

Changing from Mobil 1 5w30 to Esso/Exxon XD-3 0W30 now, should cut the synthetic 'premium' per oil change down to $5CAD per change over cheap department store oil.

 

[2004 F150 4x4]

mn11998 and ugly3 I have almost the same deal. Here are the numbers. However on my new truck have not completely made up my mind yet as I can get a 250k/10yr extended warranty with Pennzoil.
Dino 4 changes a year 66.44
Syn 2 changes a year 76.16
Total savings 9.52 a year or .026 a day.
Synthetics do have a place !!!
Dave

 

[Steve S]

I would use a syn oil if I drove alot of miles per year I would use a syn. but I don't so I use Delo oil. There is not alot of difference if the syn oil is is run for long mile drains. Great for real cold weather as a 5 or 10w30 or 40 can be run all year. No problem with seals .

 

[Mamala Bay]

I can't say to explain it but why I am bias to synthetic and I feel stronger cause of it is what happened. I was cleaning my radiator so I put staight water to really clean the system out. Drove 20 miles to work and topped off the radiator after cooled but dropped the radiator cap...must had bent it somehow. Drove back home and after 2 miles heard a pop. Well the radiator cap blew off but a dummy as I didn't think of it. Dang I thought the engine was blown but to my surprise the synthetic oil wasn't even affected and engine was not EVEN heated in anyway. The radiator system was completey empty...I am a believer in synthetic oil..the oil used was the Amsoil S2 0-30wt...

 

[Jimbo]

Im puzzled at some of the responses here. How does synthetic "lower underhood temperatures"? what is the relationship between coolant loss and the oil? These point out how effective the propoganda has been promoting synthetic motor oils. Arctic cold is the only place where I can see a real advantage over modern dino.

 

[Mamala Bay]

I did have Lube Control and Fuel Power with the synthetic oil when I did have the coolant loss. That might have had some positive effect in protecting the engine.

 

[JohnnyO]

I figure if I run synthetic, it's less of my money that the Arabs get. Reason enough.

 

[pitzel]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnnyO:
I figure if I run synthetic, it's less of my money that the Arabs get. Reason enough.

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Not really. conventional oil is still required to manufacture 'synthetic oil'. Or natural gas, which is actually starting to be imported to North America from the middle east.

For example, in Canada, much of the domestic supply of synthetic oil starts out as naptha and crude oil at Nova Chemicals' Cruddre facility near Sarnia, Ontario. It is then converted to ethylene which in turn is converted to the polyolefins found in synthetic oil. I believe Mobil 1 is made somewhere in the deep south, so it likely uses conventional-oil-derived basestocks as well.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by pitzel:
Or natural gas, which is actually starting to be imported to North America from the middle east.

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Yesterday I attended the annual board meeting of the Northern Virginia Electric Cooperative (my electric company) and they stated that some 30% of the electricity that they supply comes from natural-gas fired power plants. (They own a stake in one nuclear plant).

 

[JohnnyO]

AFAIK, Mobil 1 (and Amsoil) are pure synthetics and do not have dino basestocks. The are made from gasses. Please note that I didn't say "none", I said "less".
Further, if the greenies would let us drill for our own oil and gas, we wouldn't have to import so much.

 

[pitzel]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnnyO:
AFAIK, Mobil 1 (and Amsoil) are pure synthetics and do not have dino basestocks. The are made from gasses. Please note that I didn't say "none", I said "less".
Further, if the greenies would let us drill for our own oil and gas, we wouldn't have to import so much.

---

Ethylene is frequently manufactured from dino basestocks, but can also be manufactured from ethane gas, a constituent of natural gas.

The manufacture of 'dino' oil typically goes like this:

crude oil --> fractional distillation --> filtering/hydrocracking --> blending and additization.

Whereas 'synthetic oil' goes like this:

crude oil/naptha/ethane --> ethylene --> various polyolefins and esters --> blending and additization.

Crude oil can be, and often is the 'starting point' in the production of synthetic motor oils. However, the crude oil undergoes massive molecular change, in that, the molecules are literally ripped apart and put back together, as opposed to 'dino' where through processing, desirable crude oil molecules are selected and filtered from the other fractions.

Obviously manufacturing synthetic oil is substantially more energy intensive, so synthetics only save energy if they are able to lower fuel consumption or are able to lower lubricant consumption. Roughly speaking, with synthetic basestocks costing roughly $100/barrel (twice that of crude oil), to achieve equal energy efficiency with 'synthetic' as you would need to with 'dino', you would need to utilize the lubricant twice as long (assuming no energy is expended in actually changing the lubricant).

edit:

Just to add, synthetic basestocks would be produced at a facility such as this:

http://www.novachemicals.com/03_locations/03_m_corunna.html

http://www.novachemicals.com/04_products/04_ethylene.html

"This facility is primarily fed with crude oil and derivatives such as naptha".

[ September 23, 2004, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: pitzel ]

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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Obviously manufacturing synthetic oil is substantially more energy intensive, so synthetics only save energy if they are able to lower fuel consumption or are able to lower lubricant consumption.

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This is a very good point. The simplistic notion that the use of synthetic motor oils somehow must reduce oil imports, pollution, etc. is very naive. One would need to analyze the complete production and use cycle to attempt to determine the answer.

Thanks to the laws of thermodynamics, every process step is wasteful. It surely takes more oil/natural gas input per quart of synthetic oil produced as it does per quart of conventional oil produced.

Is there an analysis of this posted anywhere?


John

 

[MGBV8]

This site is good read re dino v synthetic -no need to buy product

http://www.synlube.com/motoroil.htm

Energy and green wise - energy cost to make new car compared to maintaining?

Energy and green wise - cost to manufacture batteries for electric cars?

 

[MGBV8]

Jimbo,

Temp issue was discussed here

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000068

As synths can also run hotter then less cooling is required less weight and less frontal drag can help performance cars.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I can see wanting an oil that will get you through wintertime without a change, esp DIY. Otherwise, I like to see time-based intervals and the grade of oil used adjusted for the miles driven in that time.

Something like this:

3000mi in 6 months, generic dino/HDEO/GII+
5000mi in 6 months, syn blend/HC synth
10,000mi in 6 months, Long-Life Synth

 

[Mamala Bay]

Realistic interval Audi Junkie..like the MC synthetic/blend interval price per ratio...would make sense.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Without realizing it, I lumped the above oils together at their various price-points. I have a another list with prefered $1, $2 etc oils, if anyone wants it. With GC on sale for $3.99, that pretty much takes the cake. It looks like $1q oil might be a real compramise in the future with SM oils being priced a bit higher. My syn vs dino theory states that you (DIY) could change your oil and filter TWICE as often with a GII+/HC oil as Mobil 1 and a single filter. 2500 miles on Havoline vs 5000 on M1. I know a lot of people can analyse the extended drain costs and miles to prove anything they want. What I can prove is double the cost or 1/2 interval. I feel that the process of physical draining and filtering the oil TWICE as often cannot be matched by a single fill of Mobil 1, making the GII+ oil a better choice.

[ September 25, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
My syn vs dino theory states that you (DIY) could change your oil and filter TWICE as often with a GII+/HC oil as Mobil 1 and a single filter. 2500 miles on Havoline vs 5000 on M1.

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Well, what's your take on if you go 5000 miles on Havoline and 10K on M1? Would changing filters every 2500 miles be a bit too frequently?

Given soley to the location of the filter on my car, it's in a PITA place to get at, I'd rather just change the oil twice and only the filter once.

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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Given soley to the location of the filter on my car, it's in a PITA place to get at, I'd rather just change the oil twice and only the filter once.

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Honda US makes an every other time filter change part of their standard oil change regimen. I think some other car companies do as well.

I would bet that every other time is probably good enough for the vast majority of modern vehicles up until the point in their lives when the engines are showing major signs of wear.

I've never been able to bring myself to do it though

.

John

 

[OdinsRageSS]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnnyO:
I figure if I run synthetic, it's less of my money that the Arabs get. Reason enough.

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o but how will they destroy the wacky terrorist zionists?