Idemitsu Synthetic Oil Reformulation for API SP/ILSAC GF-6B

[The Critic]

Idemitsu has begun advertising API SP/ILSAC GF-6B compatibility for their regular line of synthetic oils. It appears that there may have been some changes in the formulation since the data sheets have changed. The 5W-30 appears to have undergone the most significant change. 0W-16: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/9d700623c8/tds_Idemitsu%200W-16%20GF-6B.pdf 0W-20: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/be3bf33b55/tds_Idemitsu%200W-20%20GF-6.pdf 5W-20: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/ca04da0beb/tds_Idemitsu%205W-20%20GF-6.pdf 5W-30: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/610025b04c/tds_Idemitsu%205W-30%20GF-6.pdf

 

[The Critic]

Datasheets for the API SN formulations: 0W-20: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/a40079a156/tds-idemitsu-0w20.pdf 5W-20: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/e47c442e90/tds-idemitsu-5w20.pdf 5W-30: https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/0ad43bee4d/tds-idemitsu-5w30.pdf

 

[JeffKeryk]

All I know is, one time I accidentally grabbed the Idemitsu 0w20 instead of the M1 5w30 and dumped it into Sue's TSX. That little K24 was never so happy.

 

[Gokhan]

Darn, now, I have to calculate the VII content, base-oil viscosity, and base-oil quality for all these oils!

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Gokhan

Darn, now, I have to calculate the VII content, base-oil viscosity, and base-oil quality for all these oils!

I will be looking forward to your findings, thank you!

 

[electricmarquis]

Are they not the Subaru Syn maker for USA?

 

[buster]

"Idemitsu Fully Synthetic Lineup of GF-6 Engine Oils - Beyond GF-6 standards for engine wear protection, fuel economy retention, reduced oil consumption and protection against LSPI, the individual viscosity grades provide the following. 0W-16 - More than 28% less oil consumption and over a 22% advantage on fuel economy retention over GF-6 standards 0W-20 - More than 18% engine wear protection over the new GF-6 standards 5W-20 - More than 46% less oil consumption and 21% greater engine wear protection over the new standards 5W-30 - More than 24% fuel economy retention and 90% more stability in high heat" https://www.aftermarketnews.com/idemitsu-lubricants-america-introduces-new-gf-6-lineup/

 

[Gokhan]

Here are the results:

Code

Oil	                VII    BO DV150 CCS    Noack	BOQI
                               (cP)     (cP)   (% / hr)                 

Idemitsu 0W-20 SN	5.6%	1.85	5500	11.4	56
Idemitsu 5W-20 SN	3.3%	2.14	4309	9.2	50
Idemitsu 5W-30 SN	6.3%	2.16	4540	10	44

Idemitsu 0W-16 SP	2.4%	1.93	5400	10.6	61

Idemitsu 0W-20 SP	3.8%	2.05	5700	11.6	53
Idemitsu 5W-20 SP	2.2%	2.24	5250	8.2	46
Idemitsu 5W-30 SP	3.1%	2.39	5350	8.5	44

Idemitsu have reduced the VII content and increased the base-oil viscosity with API SP. This is a good thing in terms of engine wear and engine deposits. Therefore, they have advanced their blending skills since API SN. I am particularly impressed with the base-oil viscosity of the Idemitsu 5W-30 SP, which is in the likes of ACEA C3 Euro-OEM oils with HTHS = 3.5 cP such as Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30. It appears that the base-oil quality hasn't changed according to the base-oil quality index (BOQI), which means they are using the same Group III/III+ base stocks they were using in API SN. One exception is the new Idemitsu 0W-16 SP -- it appears to have some GTL or other high-quality base stock blended in the base oil according to the BOQI. Estimated base-oil viscosity at 150 °C (BO DV150) and VII content of selected oils

 

[Imp4]

Originally Posted by Gokhan

This is a good thing in terms of engine wear and engine deposits. Therefore, they have advanced their blending skills since API SN. I am particularly impressed with the base-oil viscosity of the Idemitsu 5W-30 SP, which is in the likes of ACEA C3 Euro-OEM oils with HTHS = 3.5 cP such as Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30. It appears that the base-oil quality hasn't changed according to the base-oil quality index (BOQI), which means they are using the same Group III/III+ base stocks they were using in API SN. One exception is the new Idemitsu 0W-16 SP -- it appears to have some GTL or other high-quality base stock blended in the base oil according to the BOQI

Oh brother..... They didn't 'increase their blending skills'. The standard was updated so they reformulated to meet the new standard. This speaks nothing to an increase or decrease in their skill level. Oh, and can you provide a few industry specifications that speak to the validity of the means by which BOQI is determined? Peer reviewed papers, third party independent validation, API committee review, etc..... Thanks!!!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Imp4

Oh brother..... They didn't 'increase their blending skills'. The standard was updated so they reformulated to meet the new standard. This speaks nothing to an increase or decrease in their skill level. Oh, and can you provide a few industry specifications that speak to the validity of the means by which BOQI is determined? Peer reviewed papers, third party independent validation, API committee review, etc..... Thanks!!!

Nope, most other blenders are actually increasing the VII content and lowering the base-oil viscosity to be able to meet the stricter fuel-economy limits of ILSAC GF-6. You need more VII for higher fuel efficiency. Therefore, Idemitsu is indeed exhibiting better blending skills than some others as far as the base-oil viscosity and VII content are concerned, as it is actually decreasing the VII content and raising the base-oil viscosity. Both the A_Harman index and BO DV150/HTFS are original research on BITOG. So is the BOQI. You can "demand" peer review, question them, etc., etc., but they will remain as they are, since we are not being paid here to do this research.

 

[Imp4]

Originally Posted by Gokhan

Both the A_Harman index and BO DV150/HTFS are original research on BITOG. So is the BOQI. You can "demand" peer review, question them, etc., etc., but they will remain as they are, since we are not being paid here to do this research.

So that's a 'No', correct? No peer review, no API committee review, no 3rd party independent validation. I'm not 'demanding' that you do anything. I'm simply requesting that you provide something other generally accepted review of your own work or the work of another internet bulletin board member that validates the systems, theories, analysis, etc that you continually reference in your posts as if it is good science.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by electricmarquis

Are they not the Subaru Syn maker for USA?

Yes. Although I do not know if these oils are similar to the Subaru oil. The Idemitsu site and previous data sheets never even mentioned SN+ while SoA told me that the recent Subaru oil was SN+.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Imp4

So that's a 'No', correct? No peer review, no API committee review, no 3rd party independent validation. I'm not 'demanding' that you do anything. I'm simply requesting that you provide something other generally accepted review of your own work or the work of another internet bulletin board member that validates the systems, theories, analysis, etc that you continually reference in your posts as if it is good science.

If you really want to know about the theoretical background, read the threads on the subject and try to understand them instead of bickering about the validity of the deep technical aspects that are obscure to you. The base-oil viscosity (high-temperature, full-shear (HTFS) viscosity) calculations were fully tested and verified against the test oils in the Hugh Spikes paper, and recently "another member" Boxnuts with a strong technical background helped me go over them and question certain things, which has improved the calculation: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...erature-full-shear-viscosity#Post5409199 I have showed the other tool -- the base-oil quality index (BOQI) -- to indeed predict the base-oil type of most known oils with Group I - Group IV base oils. The notion of a CCS - Noack space is well-established "in the industry," and it is frequently used. I only turned the existing notion into a simple quantitative tool. For example Group IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, and IIId oils ascending in the base-oil quality are clearly distinguished in the CCS - Noack space. You can see where in the industry it is coming from: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5406519/re-mobil-1-ap-noack#Post5406519 Even more interestingly Shannow had criticized that the lower-viscosity PAO base stocks tend to have a higher BOQI than the higher-viscosity PAO base stocks, but there was recently a very nice article about synthetic base stocks in the Lubes'n'Greases magazine, and it showed that the oxidation time, which is the primary measure of the base-oil quality, is indeed inversely proportional to CCS × Noack. The old and new PAO base stocks have almost the same Noack, but the new PAO base stock has a much lower CCS, which results in a higher BOQI ~ 1 / (CCS × Noack) and a proportionally higher oxidation time -- quantitatively verified by ExxonMobil: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ng-base-oil-quality-index-boqi-revisited

 

[buster]

Thanks for the BOQI update Gokahn. I'm liking their 5w20.

 

[Imp4]

Originally Posted by Gokhan

If you really want to know about the theoretical background, read the threads on the subject and try to understand them instead of bickering about the validity of the deep technical aspects that are obscure to you. The base-oil viscosity (high-temperature, full-shear (HTFS) viscosity) calculations were fully tested and verified against the test oils in the Hugh Spikes paper, and recently "another member" Boxnuts with a strong technical background helped me go over them and question certain things, which has improved the calculation: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...erature-full-shear-viscosity#Post5409199 I have showed the other tool -- the base-oil quality index (BOQI) -- to indeed predict the base-oil type of most known oils with Group I - Group IV base oils. The notion of a CCS - Noack space is well-established "in the industry," and it is frequently used. I only turned the existing notion into a simple quantitative tool. For example Group IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, and IIId oils ascending in the base-oil quality are clearly distinguished in the CCS - Noack space. You can see where in the industry it is coming from: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5406519/re-mobil-1-ap-noack#Post5406519 Even more interestingly Shannow had criticized that the lower-viscosity PAO base stocks tend to have a higher BOQI than the higher-viscosity PAO base stocks, but there was recently a very nice article about synthetic base stocks in the Lubes'n'Greases magazine, and it showed that the oxidation time, which is the primary measure of the base-oil quality, is indeed inversely proportional to CCS × Noack. The old and new PAO base stocks have almost the same Noack, but the new PAO base stock has a much lower CCS, which results in a higher BOQI ~ 1 / (CCS × Noack) and a proportionally higher oxidation time -- quantitatively verified by ExxonMobil: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ng-base-oil-quality-index-boqi-revisited

So that's a 'No', correct? No peer review, no API committee review, no 3rd party independent validation.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by Imp4

Originally Posted by Gokhan

If you really want to know about the theoretical background, read the threads on the subject and try to understand them instead of bickering about the validity of the deep technical aspects that are obscure to you. The base-oil viscosity (high-temperature, full-shear (HTFS) viscosity) calculations were fully tested and verified against the test oils in the Hugh Spikes paper, and recently "another member" Boxnuts with a strong technical background helped me go over them and question certain things, which has improved the calculation: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...erature-full-shear-viscosity#Post5409199 I have showed the other tool -- the base-oil quality index (BOQI) -- to indeed predict the base-oil type of most known oils with Group I - Group IV base oils. The notion of a CCS - Noack space is well-established "in the industry," and it is frequently used. I only turned the existing notion into a simple quantitative tool. For example Group IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, and IIId oils ascending in the base-oil quality are clearly distinguished in the CCS - Noack space. You can see where in the industry it is coming from: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5406519/re-mobil-1-ap-noack#Post5406519 Even more interestingly Shannow had criticized that the lower-viscosity PAO base stocks tend to have a higher BOQI than the higher-viscosity PAO base stocks, but there was recently a very nice article about synthetic base stocks in the Lubes'n'Greases magazine, and it showed that the oxidation time, which is the primary measure of the base-oil quality, is indeed inversely proportional to CCS × Noack. The old and new PAO base stocks have almost the same Noack, but the new PAO base stock has a much lower CCS, which results in a higher BOQI ~ 1 / (CCS × Noack) and a proportionally higher oxidation time -- quantitatively verified by ExxonMobil: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ng-base-oil-quality-index-boqi-revisited

So that's a 'No', correct? No peer review, no API committee review, no 3rd party independent validation.

I believe the diligence Gokhan has put into this checks out. I've seen no contrary view to this that has proven him wrong. The math does work out.

 

[benjy]

very interesting + as noted their 5-30 looks great, since i am not a fan of anything 20 but their 5-20 is impressive as well!!! THANKS!!