Thanks beanoil, I wrote what I wrote off-line and didn't see your post before I submitted mine.
I"ve had it with SUV Drivers!!!!!
- Thread starter Korean_redneck
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Let's not forget that locked 4WD differentials can induce slips and break traction due to the fact they are locked and cannot provide compensation for differing wheel movment, roratin and travel. This makes AWD with differential action superior in on-road higher speed situations.
beanoil:
"This equation is used to calculate force on a given mass of an object and its acceleration (or deceleration by using a negative value). Also, a negative value can mean acceleration in the OPPOSITE direction. F is the net force in newtons or 1 Kg * M/s2. That means if a mass of 1 kilogram (which is 2.204623 lb when at sea level on Earth) is decelerated by one meter per second (acceleration = -1), it would take a force of 1 newton to stop it. For British use, F is in the units of pounds and M is in units of slugs, which is a British unit for mass, and A is in units of ft/s2. Please note that WEIGHT is also a force, but is composed of MASS x ACCELERATION. In place of A, use 9.803 if in m/s2 or use 32.162 ft/s2, which is the acceleration caused by Earth's gravity at sea level."
Yes. What you just wrote is that force between a vehicle and the ground is proportional to weight, and the force required to accelerate (brake) it is proportional to weight. You just "proved" that a big truck should have the same stopping distance as a Mini.
The reason this doesn't work is that "coefficient of friction" is, as I wrote in an above post, is not constant for a given set of materials. It depends on many factors. You can learn quite a lot about it if you want, and then realize you, like I, really know very little. But one thing for sure is that few simple rules apply, except as broad generalizations that almost always have exceptions.
In practice, on snow, weight can actually be an advantage.
- Glenn
"This equation is used to calculate force on a given mass of an object and its acceleration (or deceleration by using a negative value). Also, a negative value can mean acceleration in the OPPOSITE direction. F is the net force in newtons or 1 Kg * M/s2. That means if a mass of 1 kilogram (which is 2.204623 lb when at sea level on Earth) is decelerated by one meter per second (acceleration = -1), it would take a force of 1 newton to stop it. For British use, F is in the units of pounds and M is in units of slugs, which is a British unit for mass, and A is in units of ft/s2. Please note that WEIGHT is also a force, but is composed of MASS x ACCELERATION. In place of A, use 9.803 if in m/s2 or use 32.162 ft/s2, which is the acceleration caused by Earth's gravity at sea level."
Yes. What you just wrote is that force between a vehicle and the ground is proportional to weight, and the force required to accelerate (brake) it is proportional to weight. You just "proved" that a big truck should have the same stopping distance as a Mini.
The reason this doesn't work is that "coefficient of friction" is, as I wrote in an above post, is not constant for a given set of materials. It depends on many factors. You can learn quite a lot about it if you want, and then realize you, like I, really know very little. But one thing for sure is that few simple rules apply, except as broad generalizations that almost always have exceptions.
In practice, on snow, weight can actually be an advantage.
- Glenn
Korean Redneck, by the start of your post, I thought you were driving that interstate in good weather.
I would have passed you too.
I'm kind of a jerk about tailgating people that go way below the speed limit in dry weather but I give them plenty of room (five seconds or more) when it gets icy. And I pull over after a minute or two, when it's safe, if a queue lines up behind me despite the fact that I'm going the "perfect" speed and they're all "idiots". It's mostly two-lane country roads out here with steep crowns and soft ditches. I run 4 dedicated snow tires on my FWD saturn, mostly for their sideways friction (whatever it's called) so when I steer and accellerate the tires go where they're pointed.
There is a segment of the population with an extreme disdain for ever going in to the mechanic's. Generally they lease or trade every few years and are suckers for "all season" tires. That way they never have to bother with appointments at the tire shop for summer/winter changeovers. I think they buy a vehicle that's "extra tough" because they subconsciously know they'll neglect it. Another segment of my operating theory is they also gravitate towards toyota/honda since the average reliability scores so well in all the surveys.
This thread title goads SUV owners to defend their products. (This one's been more civil than most.) I prefer "I've had it with idiot winter drivers".
I'm kind of a jerk about tailgating people that go way below the speed limit in dry weather but I give them plenty of room (five seconds or more) when it gets icy. And I pull over after a minute or two, when it's safe, if a queue lines up behind me despite the fact that I'm going the "perfect" speed and they're all "idiots". It's mostly two-lane country roads out here with steep crowns and soft ditches. I run 4 dedicated snow tires on my FWD saturn, mostly for their sideways friction (whatever it's called) so when I steer and accellerate the tires go where they're pointed.
There is a segment of the population with an extreme disdain for ever going in to the mechanic's. Generally they lease or trade every few years and are suckers for "all season" tires. That way they never have to bother with appointments at the tire shop for summer/winter changeovers. I think they buy a vehicle that's "extra tough" because they subconsciously know they'll neglect it. Another segment of my operating theory is they also gravitate towards toyota/honda since the average reliability scores so well in all the surveys.
This thread title goads SUV owners to defend their products. (This one's been more civil than most.) I prefer "I've had it with idiot winter drivers".
IT is not the SUV that makes accidents happen. It the IDIOT behind the steering wheel.Using the cell phone, driving w/cruise control on, trying to eat or work a laptop or put make-up on, all while driving, including during adverse weather conditions. The IDIOTS will also try to pass trucks and get halfway past and stay at the mid length of the truck and not move past it, this will cause a accident for the Idiot. Then they wonder why it is their fault.
I very seldom even have the radio on while driving. When I pass a truck I do so quickly, so to cut down the time of being in the vaccum pocket next to the truck, that is a dangerous spot to be (rocks and debris fly up alot).
Driving with the cruise control during icy weather is just asking to end up someplace other than in your lane on the road.
WINTER-TIME CONDITIONS require the full attention factor of the driver period.
I see too many Idiots in the ditches when driving the 20 plus ton SNOWPLOW/SANDER for where I work. The Idiots like to try to pull out in front of me while sanding and plowing. This is a easy job when on nice piece of hiway with no manhole cover, valve-box lids etc. sticking up, plus keeping the plowtruck on the road(we have to ride the edge of the whiteline,(no side wing plow on the truck)this makes for a white knuckle ride sometimes. You got to shift/steer/work the hyd.levers for sander and plow all at the same time while watching out for IDIOTS out there. THE GOOD LORD is my COPILOT while in the PLOW driving
I very seldom even have the radio on while driving. When I pass a truck I do so quickly, so to cut down the time of being in the vaccum pocket next to the truck, that is a dangerous spot to be (rocks and debris fly up alot).
Driving with the cruise control during icy weather is just asking to end up someplace other than in your lane on the road.
WINTER-TIME CONDITIONS require the full attention factor of the driver period.
I see too many Idiots in the ditches when driving the 20 plus ton SNOWPLOW/SANDER for where I work. The Idiots like to try to pull out in front of me while sanding and plowing. This is a easy job when on nice piece of hiway with no manhole cover, valve-box lids etc. sticking up, plus keeping the plowtruck on the road(we have to ride the edge of the whiteline,(no side wing plow on the truck)this makes for a white knuckle ride sometimes. You got to shift/steer/work the hyd.levers for sander and plow all at the same time while watching out for IDIOTS out there. THE GOOD LORD is my COPILOT while in the PLOW driving
"This thread title goads SUV owners to defend their products ... This one's been more civil than most."
I credit the atmosphere here at BITOG ... as well as the efforts of the moderators.
TOMBUCK, you certainly speak like a man of experience. You point out some egregious behavior that can lead to accidents... but as you also point out that driving in bad weather requires a GREAT DEAL of focused attention and far more subtle bad driving habits can lead to disaster as well.
--- Bror Jace
I credit the atmosphere here at BITOG ... as well as the efforts of the moderators.
TOMBUCK, you certainly speak like a man of experience. You point out some egregious behavior that can lead to accidents... but as you also point out that driving in bad weather requires a GREAT DEAL of focused attention and far more subtle bad driving habits can lead to disaster as well.
--- Bror Jace
Yes, SUV drivers are generally overconfident about their abilities in snow. When someone says that they're getting an SUV because they want a better vehicle for winter, I recommend better tires and they rarely listen. A buddy of mine was frustrated by his FWD Acura's inability to get around the city in the winter. I immediately recommended winter tires. The next winter, he was frustrated to the point that he was shopping for Subarus, but was finding he'd have to spend quite a bit for a good one. So, I finally convinced him to get winter tires and he got some studded Hankooks. His exact words: "Best investment I've ever made."
This is true because the tires on a heavier vehicle are often narrower relative to the weight of the vehicle than on cars. As mentioned, narrower is better to cut through snow, and I always try to get winter tires that are narrower than my summer tires. I'm proud to wear narrow black steelies, which stand out and say, "I have better wheels in the summer, but I'm smart enough not to use them now!"
Total weight does nothing to determine stopping distance. Provided the brakes are powerful enough and tuned well enough to reach lock up at about the same time (which ABS should simulate in lieu of brake force distribution, and even non-electronic systems are usually designed good enough for this), it is entirely up to the tires to determine how good the vehicle will slow down for a single panic stop. On dry pavement, trucks and SUVs generally don't brake as well as cars because they have narrower tires with more tread depth that are a little overloaded (traction-wise) in an emergency stop, and then the front ones get severely overloaded when the high center of gravity throws all the weight onto them. On snow and ice, these factors are far less significant and the narrower tire usually has the advantage (for comparable tires).
[ January 22, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: rpn453 ]
Expanding on this point, and putting together a few points that others have already said:
This is true because the tires on a heavier vehicle are often narrower relative to the weight of the vehicle than on cars. As mentioned, narrower is better to cut through snow, and I always try to get winter tires that are narrower than my summer tires. I'm proud to wear narrow black steelies, which stand out and say, "I have better wheels in the summer, but I'm smart enough not to use them now!"
Total weight does nothing to determine stopping distance. Provided the brakes are powerful enough and tuned well enough to reach lock up at about the same time (which ABS should simulate in lieu of brake force distribution, and even non-electronic systems are usually designed good enough for this), it is entirely up to the tires to determine how good the vehicle will slow down for a single panic stop. On dry pavement, trucks and SUVs generally don't brake as well as cars because they have narrower tires with more tread depth that are a little overloaded (traction-wise) in an emergency stop, and then the front ones get severely overloaded when the high center of gravity throws all the weight onto them. On snow and ice, these factors are far less significant and the narrower tire usually has the advantage (for comparable tires).
[ January 22, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: rpn453 ]
''A buddy of mine was frustrated by his FWD Acura's inability to get around the city in the winter. '' I never drove an Acura. I am now on my third small, American sedan, and never remember a situation where more traction than my all seasons gave would have helped. More ground clearance? In some cases, yes.
Okay, okay. I'll change that to:
"A buddy of mine was frustrated by his FWD Acura's inability to perform the same in the winter as in the summer."
This is a Canada-only Acura version of a Honda Civic, which had aftermarket 16's and "all-season" H-rated 205/50R16's. Great in summer, terrible in winter. Had he put 185/60R15 good all-seasons on the factory wheels instead, there would have been a drastic improvement too.
Of course, driving within the limits of all-seasons is still safer than driving beyond the limits of winter tires. There can also be huge differences in snow performance between two different all-season tires. The driver is still, by far, the biggest factor in any driving situation!
[ January 22, 2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: rpn453 ]
"A buddy of mine was frustrated by his FWD Acura's inability to perform the same in the winter as in the summer."
This is a Canada-only Acura version of a Honda Civic, which had aftermarket 16's and "all-season" H-rated 205/50R16's. Great in summer, terrible in winter. Had he put 185/60R15 good all-seasons on the factory wheels instead, there would have been a drastic improvement too.
Of course, driving within the limits of all-seasons is still safer than driving beyond the limits of winter tires. There can also be huge differences in snow performance between two different all-season tires. The driver is still, by far, the biggest factor in any driving situation!
[ January 22, 2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: rpn453 ]
I don't know why people have to keep bashing SUV owners. Yes, there are some who believe they are invincible in their SUV, but there are many people who drive like idiots in their sports cars or motorcycles. But, for the most part, we buy an SUV for the added safety, comfort, room, ability, or even looks. And yes, I believe my family is safer in an SUV, I've seen wrecks where people would never have lived through in a car. The rollover issue is well overblown if you ask me. It's being used as a political point because SUV's are too big, or polluting, or use too much gas. Point being, we live in a free country, drive what you want, and give the same courtesy and respect to others who drive what they want.
The only way to fairly ascertain the safety of any given vehicle is to crash it into a solid object. Otherwise, why not drive an 18 wheeler or APC? Also, "active safety" plays a role in avoiding accidents via shorter stopping and the ability to manuover out of an accident. ...but you already have it all figured out down there, don't ya'll?
Safety of SUV discussion:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007154;p=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007154;p=1
Audi Junkie, this is the type of attitude I'm talking about. I'm simply stating why I believe an SUV is better for me and my family, and that you should drive what you feel is best for your situation. I haven't read any posts from SUV drivers with the attitude you've shown. Here's a real world example for you where "active safety" would have done you no good. My cousin got into a wreck a little over a year ago in a Trailblazer, which is a mid-sized SUV. He was coming over a hill in wet weather. There was a truck that had spun out of control, and he had no time to react, it was too close, and coming too fast. Most likely he and his wife would have died in a car, but they walked away with minor injuries. That's a pretty good assesment for me.
Also, the argument for driving an 18 wheeler or APC is a bit much, don't you think? We each make decisions for the safety of our family based on the resources we have. I believe an SUV provides the best protection for my family, as well as giving me the utility I need. If a car does that for you, great!
Like I said before, why can't we just respect each other's choices? I would like to continue to live in a free country, and not let the government decide what kind of car I can drive.
Also, the argument for driving an 18 wheeler or APC is a bit much, don't you think? We each make decisions for the safety of our family based on the resources we have. I believe an SUV provides the best protection for my family, as well as giving me the utility I need. If a car does that for you, great!
Like I said before, why can't we just respect each other's choices? I would like to continue to live in a free country, and not let the government decide what kind of car I can drive.
Pablo wrote: "Can't generalize. Some, but not all, think they are invincible. It's been like that since the late 80's."
Can we make that "since the late prehistoric?" It is an effect that has been going on since recorded history,a nd most likely even earlier.
Can we make that "since the late prehistoric?" It is an effect that has been going on since recorded history,a nd most likely even earlier.
Well.. Im still a slow driver in good weather.. i go 70 MPH in a 70 MPH. I don't care if people get ****** haha.
"no time to react, it was too close, and coming too fast"
Exactly, too fast for a Trailblazer. You weren't even there, were you? Let me guess as to the substance of the analytical conversation between you and your brother..."my good 'ol pick-up did good" -"yup".
How are you so sure the SUV is safer in a given crash than a top-rated car anyway? Seems like you are making more than a few assumptions. Oh, hate to burst your bubble, but the Guberment DOES tell you what to drive.
Talking about driver attitudes. What's up with the whole Dodge "Ram" thing? Is that the thinking, "ram" it? For once, marketing is not too far off-base. They seem to know their target audience.
Da-da da-da...HIT IT!
Exactly, too fast for a Trailblazer. You weren't even there, were you? Let me guess as to the substance of the analytical conversation between you and your brother..."my good 'ol pick-up did good" -"yup".
How are you so sure the SUV is safer in a given crash than a top-rated car anyway? Seems like you are making more than a few assumptions. Oh, hate to burst your bubble, but the Guberment DOES tell you what to drive.
Talking about driver attitudes. What's up with the whole Dodge "Ram" thing? Is that the thinking, "ram" it? For once, marketing is not too far off-base. They seem to know their target audience.
Da-da da-da...HIT IT!
That is a dilusion. From all the info I've seen, SUV's as a group have a higher death rate per 1000 accidents than cars, mini vans, pickups, etc.. If they were safer, it would be logical to assume the death rates for SUV's would be lower. The accident data clearly doesn't support the statement that SUV's are safer. You can choose to drive a SUV for many reasons, but to drive a safer vehicle can't be one of them.
My understanding is for the occupants of the SUV.
I don't know what I would do without my trucks.
The only safe vehicles are the vehicles with good, defensive drivers. Put an idiot behind the wheel in any vehicle and its a deadly missile.
Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner,2.7 liter, 4 cylinder, Mobil1 5w30 ODO 23800
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner,3.0 liter,6 cylinder, Mobil1 5w40 tsuv ODO 102500
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
The only safe vehicles are the vehicles with good, defensive drivers. Put an idiot behind the wheel in any vehicle and its a deadly missile.
Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner,2.7 liter, 4 cylinder, Mobil1 5w30 ODO 23800
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner,3.0 liter,6 cylinder, Mobil1 5w40 tsuv ODO 102500
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
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