I think I'm a stick in the mud... :(

[HardbodyLoyalist]

This thread is in imminenet danger of becoming the best thread I've ever read on BITOG.

Sooner or later, we all confront the same question: "What do I need an oil to do and what am I willing to pay for it?"

But this passion of ours cannot be condensed to a cost/benefit analysis. We oil freaks are drawn to BITOG like moths to the flame in a neverending pursuit of the hidden order of things -- the "mechanism," if you will, of all things oil related.

In the end, pursuit of understanding is the addiction that calls us. And, as addictions go, we could all do worse.


On a side note... does anybody else find this thread slightly "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"-esque?

 

[wtd]

For years I was a dedicated synthetic user, Mobil 1 in particular. After beginning to do UOA's on the Mobil 1 and not being impressed with the results, I decided to go back to a conventional oil(Chevron Supreme). I haven't been disappointed yet. I get better UOA's, the engine is quieter, and my oil consumption went down. Moneywise, I don't think I was ahead in the game by using Synthetics. This engine will likely last as long as I need it to by using what I'm using now. Synthetics have their place, but I don't swear by them now like I used to.

 

[Motorbike]

Corvette vs Dodge Viper

V-Drive vs Pump Boat

Harley vs Honda

Crower Cams vs Competition Cams

San Diego Chargers vs The Oklahoma Sooners

Eukanuba vs Ground Up Corn as Dog Food

Synthetic vs Dino

This is THE BEST

site on the web to agree and disagree about oil .

Do we agree ?

 

[The Oil Expert]

I can't understand why anyone would purchase motor oil through the mail or online. When you purchase products online and give your credit card there's a chance someone can steal your idenity. It's so easy to purchase motor oil locally, and with products like chevron/Havoline which offer synthetic blend and a full synthetic at $3.49 per quart at Advanced Auto. Why would you mail order your lubricants? As usuall Ray H got this one perfectly, and wtd proved Chevron Supreme out performed Mobil 1.

 

[crashz]

I like a good dino as much as the next guy, especially a HDEO, but my conflict is with the cold winters and starting at -10 degrees. Thats when I feel better about having a syn in the crankcase. Otherwise I think I'd run Delo year round.

 

[Alan]

The reason I broke away from synthetics in one of my cars was:

Really,how long do I realisticly want to keep this car for?

I don't want to be driving this 15yrs(looking so hip) from now to be honest.

Regular dino should get me as far as I need it to go in reality as long as I properly take of it.

In my van the engine has a good

reputation on

oil,plus the filter is a mess to change so M1 it is.

 

[Audi Junkie]

IMO, the average someone who suddenly decides to spend $30 to try synth oil in their normal car will be dissapointed if they expect miracles. That tells me it is generally not worth it. Bottom line is: what is it worth to you? If you pay someone for changes, maybe extended drains and synth are better. I am a car-nut, and have a Zen relationship with my car, so I don't mind the extra $, but most 'ol-timers do.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Oil Expert:
I can't understand why anyone would purchase motor oil through the mail or online. When you purchase products online and give your credit card there's a chance someone can steal your idenity.

---

As long as you are doing business with a reputable company, there is less danger of your credit card info being stolen on line than there is in a restaurant when the waiter has your card out of sight for 5 minutes.

 

[Steve S]

Feul Tanker,What oil is used it the big trucks in which the engines probably cost more than most of our cars or pickup trucks?


Syn oil has its uses.


Motorbike, V drives !!!

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Oil Expert:

and wtd proved Chevron Supreme out performed Mobil 1.

---

EK ,

Pile it on man

The Expert here did not take into consideration the multiple internal coolant leaks the Chevy engine had during the period of time while running Mobil oil . A last repair then the dino interval . The motor was a problem child .

Now the Expert likes the Chevron Blend with 3-9% whatever base oil ?

When did you change your mind there ?

You posted a few times they were ALL ripoffs

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
I can think of only a few instances where synthetic is required by the mfg. Usually there are mfg specs to cover the oil and the product itself is supplied for free during warranty period. Is that the case with 'Vette or is M1 simply factory-fill? Either way it is a specialty enthusisiat car where performance can be affected drasticly by poor oil and cost is less of an object.

---

GM definitely doesn't give free oil changes for the Corvette, you have to pay for it yourself. I'll have to check my owner's manual but I'm not sure if it says specifically that you must use synthetic oil or not. It might simply say you must use an oil which passes GM 4718M (which in a roundabout way is the same thing since only synthetic oils pass this test)

The LS1 engine in the 97-04 Corvette is virtually identical to the LS1 engine in the 98-02 Camaro/Firebird though, which doesn't call for synthetic (although it did quietly become the factory fill for most of the 2002 model year) So it's not really an absolute requirement for the LS1 engine to use synthetic oil in order to protect it properly. I will still use nothing but synthetic oil in mine though, for many reasons (such as my hard driving style plus the fact that winters are cold here and my car will be driven everyday and parked outside overnight)

 

[Ken2]

Pat,
I remember reading a while back that the reason for synthetic oil in the 'vette was that there was no room for an oil cooler under the hood. True? Does the LS1 Camaro have an oil cooler while the LS1 'vette doesn't?


Ken

 

[ekpolk]

I too have heard the lack-of-oil-cooler explanation. I can't speak to whether or not that's actually correct. I have read in various car magazines about Mobil-1 being factory fill in current 'vettes. I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that this implied that GM intended that the owner should continue to use M-1. And FWIW, a couple years ago, I was salivating over a 'vette on display in a local Chevy dealer's showroom, and recall that the oil filler cap had the M-1 logo printed on it. I did not examine closely to see whether it said "must use" or "recommended" or "use with approval of fellow BITOG members". OK, that was a little uncalled for, but fun nevertheless. . . Anyway, if Patman or another 'vette owner could clarify this, that would be nice.

 

[jsharp]

Interesting thread -

I've owned a lot of beaters in the past and used cheap oil in them. In a couple, I even used Mobil 1 that had been drained from one of my good cars after 7K-10K miles. One thing that made me consider those cars beaters was oil consumption. I just couldn't see putting $5 a quart oil in an engine that used a quart every 1000 miles.

In the good cars I've owned though the synthetics are worth it to me. I've looked at this way for over 20 years and here's some of the $$ I've come up with to make it 200,000 miles.

With a 5 quart system using $1 a quart dino changed at 3000 miles using a $3 filter, the cost of oil and filters for 200K miles = 67 changes at $8 each for $536 total.

Same 5 quart system, same $3 filter, but using $5 a quart synthetic changed at 10K miles. Going 200K miles = 20 changes at $28 each for $560.

Anyone want to come over and change my oil 47 extra times for the $24 difference? I'll buy the oil and filter, all you have to do is change it.

Ok, so maybe I should extend the dino interval to 5000 miles. In 200K miles I'd now be looking at 40 changes at $8 each for a total of $320. Wow, I've "saved" $240. Again, anyone want to come over and do 20 extra oil changes for me for $240? Hey, you'll be "making" $12 per change. Is that OK money to you?

This in itself is enough reason for me to use synthetics and why I think the "I can't afford synthetics" in a car that uses little or no oil is foolish. Forgetting about how superior I think synthetics are in general, I can't afford the to waste the time for the extra oil changes. I sure as H%$& won't change anyone's oil for $12 so why should I do my own for that?

Feel free to check my math and let me know how much your time is worth. I have good tools and a nice shop so if you really like changing oil please stop by. I'll pay you $12 each time for getting dirty and crawling underneath my muddy trucks and low cars...

[ September 09, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: jsharp ]

 

[fuel tanker man]

"Fuel Tanker,What oil is used it the big trucks in which the engines probably cost more than most of our cars or pickup trucks?"

We generally use either Shell Rotella 15W40 or Mobil Delvac, both are dino oils.

We change the oil every 25,000 miles. Some companies do it more often, some less often.

The average heavy truck engine has a ten gallon sump, and this helps accomodate long drain intervals. I don't know of any fleet operators who are using synthetic in thier big truck engines, however, some owner operators do. But at thirty bucks a gallon that's 300 dollars worth of oil in most engines--as opposed to 80 dollars for the dino. Most companies have done the math and looked at the test results of other companies and the word in the industry is that synthetics aren't worth the cost.

By the way, I don't have a problem with anyone who is running synthetic in a high performance engine. I agree with the point made above that in the case of an overheated engine synthetic is the way to go. I'm using Mobil 1 15W50 in my Harley Davidson for that very reason; if the engine ever overheats the oil won't bake into slime. The HD engine is air cooled, and oils pretty weakly; hence the synthetic.

For a water cooled grocery-getter I think dino stuff will allow it to survive much longer than most folks are going to be likely to keep the car.

One last point. When comparing the cost figures of syn versus dino, we shouldn't necessarily use the 3000 mile drain interval with the dino. Some of the better dinos are still quite robust (from numbers I'm seeing here) at even 5000 miles. A fairer comparison would be 4000 miles for the dino...

Dan

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Audi Junkie:

quote:

---

should a Corvette owner, whose manual requires the use of synthetic oil just blow that off

---

Hey, I never said that! My opinion on that is new dino/HC oil can be used where engineers once specified low-grade synthetic. I can think of only a few instances where synthetic is required by the mfg. Usually there are mfg specs to cover the oil and the product itself is supplied for free during warranty period. Is that the case with 'Vette or is M1 simply factory-fill? Either way it is a specialty enthusisiat car where performance can be affected drasticly by poor oil and cost is less of an object.

15w-40 Delvac in a 'Vette? Bring it on, I use in it my 30v Audi. It's probally better than the old SG synthetics from the owners' manual. I would not use it in an S4 twin-turbo though. Different products for different cars and owners.

I did not set an impossibly high standard with the "miracles" thing, that is what average Joe expects from commercials etc.. I have a close family member who screwed up her 1.8t on dino oil at irregular intervals and a friend who did the same thing on Mobil 1 at 1/yr intervals. Who knows the shop probally gagged her for the money. No sluge, that would be a miracle. These engines WILL run on dino at 3000 miles and "dino" is getting better all the time.

---

AJ -- I know you didn't say that, I did. It was a rhetorical question aimed at, and designed to challenge, the hard-core dino forever element of BITOG membership. Like you, and many other members, I agree that dino oils are a fine choice for many situations, whereas syns are better in others (not trying to put words in your mouth, correct me if I've misread what you've said in the past). But I do still disagree with your "miracle/value" description in the your earlier post. For me, a syn need not deliver anything close to a "miraculous" improvement in performance. In fact, the day-to-day difference may be almost undetectable, yet the oil is still "worth it" to me if, for example, a good syn saves me an engine purchase after a single extreme event like an overheat. It's almost like buying insurance -- you don't see much value until something bad happens. And on a more routine level, being able to go to 7500 or 10000 OCI makes more expensive syns worth it to me also.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken2:
Pat,
I remember reading a while back that the reason for synthetic oil in the 'vette was that there was no room for an oil cooler under the hood. True? Does the LS1 Camaro have an oil cooler while the LS1 'vette doesn't?


Ken

---

Nope, no oil coolers have ever gone on any LS1 Camaro or Firebird from the factory.

The oil cooler issue was with the LT1 powered Corvettes which came out in 1992. That was when they first began using synthetic oil and found they could eliminate the need for an oil cooler this way. But at the same time, many LT1 powered Camaros and Firebirds were sold without oil coolers and they specified dino oil. The oil cooler was an option from 95-97, but not from 93-94. Not many cars got this option though. My old 95 Firebird was supposed to have it but did not for some reason (it had the 3.23 axle which supposedly meant it was also supposed to have the cooler)

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
I too have heard the lack-of-oil-cooler explanation. I can't speak to whether or not that's actually correct. I have read in various car magazines about Mobil-1 being factory fill in current 'vettes. I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that this implied that GM intended that the owner should continue to use M-1. And FWIW, a couple years ago, I was salivating over a 'vette on display in a local Chevy dealer's showroom, and recall that the oil filler cap had the M-1 logo printed on it. I did not examine closely to see whether it said "must use" or "recommended" or "use with approval of fellow BITOG members". OK, that was a little uncalled for, but fun nevertheless. . . Anyway, if Patman or another 'vette owner could clarify this, that would be nice.

---

This is what the oil filler cap on an LS1 Corvette looks like:

http://www.xse.com/leres/ss/images/mobil1cap-sm.html

 

[Bugshu]

I understand perfectly what Ekpolk is saying.

If you were a doctor or lawyer and your time was worth $500 an hour then the time value of your services would be far greater than the savings value of Dino oil.

Being able to extend your OCI would be well worth the cost of a synthetic oil. Even if it didnt protect as well or feature the other advantages of synthetics.

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

 

[The Oil Expert]

Note to Patman:A customer of mine has a 2001 Corvette which requires 5w30 Mobil 1 synthetic. He leased this car and except for the factory fill oil he has used nothing but 5w30 Wolf's Head super duty motor oil. He has 76,000 miles on it and the engine runs perfect and if you look down the oil filler in the valve cover there is absolutely no sludge or varnish. He was way over the miles on the lease and had to buy the car. He's too cheap to use the Mobil 1 synthetic but has excellent results with the 5w30 Wolf's Head. I'm not reccomending anybody do this but this is a absolute truth. I also like to add that Patman is a great guy to have on this sight, he spends a lot of his own time and more importantly his own money having uoa done and sharing it with everybody on this sight.

To Patman