I think I'm a stick in the mud... :(

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I've read and re-read just about all there is to read about oil additives here and elsewhere. I've read and re-read everything I can find regarding synthetic and "boutique" motor oils versus dinos.

And I have this problem:

I only got interested in oil quality a few short weeks ago. I'm driving a '93 Ford Escort that has now about 163K miles on its little 1.9 four cylinder. I've never used a partucular oil; I've just used whatever was handy. I noticed that the last oil change I did I was using Penzoil 10W40 bulk oil from the Wally World oil change pit. That oil ran over 8000 miles, but I did top it off at least three times with a quart of, well, whatever. I've used Wolfshead motor oil once or twice to bring it back up on the stick. I recall using a house brand convienience store oil once as well.

I finally did decide to put some Delo 400 15W40 in there for the remainder of the summer and early fall. I figured from what I've read it might (yeah, a debatable "might") clean up the engine internals a bit. But if it doesn't clean it at all I'm sure it'll still oil the engine just fine.

The car is still running great. I can't complain. I get a little smoke on start up some of the time but not always. I'm very satisfied with the longevity of the engine at this point and if it blows on me tomorrow I'll still say it was a great car.

So I hear that I can put this particular oil in there, or that particular additive in there, or a combo of both--and I'll get better wear from the engine. That's very possible; I won't argue that point. Or else I can run my oil longer than I ordinarily might.

But I'm getting an oil change using the dino and a Wally World filter now (DIY) for under ten dollars. And I'm not seeing any major negative effects of the tardy oil changes and hodge-podge of different oils I've used in this car over the years.

Should I run that ten dollar's worth of oil and filter to 8000 miles? No, (I am learning!). But I will run it to about 4000 miles, perhaps 4500 miles and change it. Yeah, I could do a UOA at 4000 miles but in my case, what useful info might I get from that?

The UOA could tell me my metal count is up. It could indicate antifreeze in the oil. I guess it could show me all kinds of bad stuff. And how would I (not should I but how would I) react to a bad UOA? I'd keep right on truckin'--that's what I'd do. I would not tear the engine down. I probably wouldn't go to a different oil because from what I've learned at this forum just about any decent motor oil will keep a decent engine from self destructing.

But I'm not going to get that 20+ dollar UOA because, hey, that's enough money for two more oil changes!
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I'll just get to somewhere around 4000 miles and change the oil. For me, all a UOA will do is perhaps cause me to worry more or worry less when neither action will help my engine. It's going to run only so far whether I worry about it, or ride around feeling all smug about it. I'm not going to tear it down just because a UOA says there is a problem. My guess is that most of you would do the same; you'd just keep on driving you car and hoping that nothing comes apart on you.

There are some great synthetic oils out there that would probably protect my engine better than the conglomeration of "whatever" I've been running in it. But we can't prove that just yet, as this engine is still going strong at 163K miles. It's easy to prognosticate that my engine would wear better and therefore last longer with, for instance, Amsoil or Mobil 1. But again, we can't really be sure just how much longer it would last on these higher buck oils.

Likewise, I could purchase some of the additives that are available at my local auto parts store or through mail-order. The additives with the best reputations seem to be the ones which, shall we say, "ain't cheap."
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For the cost of these higher end additives I can get at least one, and maybe even two additional oil changes (at my pre-determined ten dollar cost).

So for my part, I have to say that I'm a "stick in the mud" when it comes to specialty oils and additives. I really don't believe that there is an additive out there that would make the contents of my crankcase better off than another ten dollar oil change could. And so I'll just change the darned oil, and I'll probably use good old dino in my cars; it's always worked before.
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I'm sure I'll continue to peruse these pages. After all, you guys are the ones who have convinced me that going 4000 miles (or even more) on bulk dino oil has never been a terrible idea (I've seen the UOA's). Yeah, I've actually doubled that interval in the past with top-offs along the way, but I won't do that any longer. I've learned a lot here, and hope that I can continue to learn.

My plan:

I'll be using Supertech oils and filters for my two cars and my two trucks. And since they all have more than 100K on them I'll just run them 'till they quit.
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Dan
 
quote:

Likewise, I could purchase some of the additives that are available at my local auto parts store or through mail-order. The additives with the best reputations seem to be the ones which, shall we say, "ain't cheap." [Wink] For the cost of these higher end additives I can get at least one, and maybe even two additional oil changes (at my pre-determined ten dollar cost).

same here buddy. i had ordered boutique oils in the past, but now i realize they were a waste of money on a car that i'm just going to use as cheaply as possible until it dies. of course i'll wash/wax/preventative maint. but that's it. it's had cheap bulk oil for most of it's life, so i see no reason to change at this point. i've looked under the valve cover and it's almost as clean as the newer car that uses synthetic.

supertech oil and filter are good enough for me.
 
That's me: Wally wotrld 15-40 HD oil and a purolator filter every other oil change on my '72 Plymouth at 192,000 miles. I change oil every 60-90 days which works out to 2,000-3,000 miles. It doesn't smoke except rarely a little puff on startup.
 
Right on. I would never try to tell someone they're doing something wrong using regular inexpensive SL-rated dino oil with reasonable intervals, except during our -40 winters!
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Fuel Tanker, I feel your pain!!! I used to change my Mobil 1 every 3,000 miles. Now, I've come to the conclusion that expensive synthetic oil in anything less than a Bimmer is basically pointless. From my recent experiences with GM vehicles, you'll blow an intake gasket and flood the crankcase with coolent and wipe out the bearings before you'd ever get to the mileage where synthetic might, and I'll stress might, add longevity to an engine. However, after recently working for a courier service, driving a 98 Toyota truck with 260K HARD miles, I have a hard time believing that synthetic will increase longevity of an engine. That truck has run nothing but the absolute cheapest/whatever's on sale 5w-30 dino, even in 100+ degree heat. 5,000 mile change interval. It burns no oil at all and runs like a champ.

By the way, your paying too much for oil!!! Chevron Supreme can be had for .69 cents per quart usually at Checker. Couple that with a Supertech filter, and you could be doing changes for about under 5 bucks
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This must be a BITOG record! (six consecutive posts exhibiting uncommom common sense) Add me to the list - Chevron Supreme or Havoline and an ST filter.
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quote:

Originally posted by salesrep:
Given your viewpoints why would any of you spend time on this board?

This board has an interesting and intelligent group of members very unlike any other forum I've ever seen. There's a lot more to this forum than synthetic oil and oil analysis (though they are an essential part of it). I'm just glad to see people making informed decisions for themselves.
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I've been using synthetics year-round for years, but who knows what I'll decide in the future. So many people have gone so many miles on inexpensive dino oil that I can't argue with their choice.

[ September 08, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: rpn453 ]
 
fuel tanker man, I was once a member of the Old Beater Ford Club. Those of us who belonged to this club, did so not by choice but because of necessity (read: poor). Take it from me: with OBF's, it really does not matter what oil ya use. If they are gonna die on ya, they will die on ya, even with $50/Qt Shell Ultra Helix inside 'em. If they are not gonna die on ya, nothing ya do will make 'em depart to that Great Blue Oval in the Sky. The body will dissolve away in a cloud of Ferric Oxide long before the engine misses a beat.

Everay day, I give thanks to the Almighty that I do not have to drive a Beater Ford again, new or old. For me, the bad old days were like standing under a cold shower tearing up dollar bills. Dollar bills spent on $80/hour mechanics who thought I was out of my mind to drive a Blue Oval.

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Excuse me...I...um-m-m-m...don't suppose this is a good thread...um-m-m...to post something about a certain oil being the Elixer of Life, Lubricity and Loquaciousness and that smells like pommes frittes after a summer rain in the Pyrenees...just call me skittish, I guess...
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Fueltankerman, from his perspective, is 'on target. Given his vehicles and mileage ...what other sensible position is he to logically take?

It would be different if he had maybe more expensive iron ..or newer iron (or alloy) ..or if he wanted to know if he could do extended OCI. He doesn't ..so it won't be.

Am I going to spend a whole lot of money on my daughter's 91 Taurua with 136k miles? No. UOA? No. I hope that she doesn't crack it up between now and when she graduates college. I'm not worried about then engine in terms of longevity (it's quite sound). Sure I do good maintenance on it ..but the love affair will be one of utility or beast of burden...not a lifetime commitment.

Now on our jeeps? Sure. I plan on having them in the family as long as I'm alive (or gas is still being pumped). I don't want to "just make it" to 250k ..I want to be at 250k with confidence.

I've lost the thirst for new vehicles that you grow tired of in a few years and replace with another throwaway vehicle (trade in).
 
I think the main difference between me and fuel tanker man is my fanatical pursuit of consistency. Before I discovered this board 1 1/2 years ago, I had been using mostly Pennzoil dino and AC or ST filters for the last 30 years, moving from 10W-30 and 6 month OCI to 5W-30 and 3 month OCI. Main change since coming here is feeling I made wise choices on skimpy info in the past. I haven't coughed the $20 for a UOA, but the data generously posted here by other makes me feel better about what I am doing. Thanks everybody. Those of us not sparing no effort to increase engine life can learn from those that are.

One thing about consistency, it reduces variables. There is a thread here currently debating the gray sludge that came after mixing Pennzoil and Delo. If I have an oil problem, I know it is the Pennzoil.
 
163k on an engine and you say that's a great car?!
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I became tired long ago of the "you gotta use Mobil 1" line. If climate allows, almost any PCMO and HDEO will work well with one exception, consumption. I hated when I maintained a car for someone just for them not to add oil when needed. I discovered it was not the engines that were the problem, it was the oil. (DCO was the worst) Later, with some synthetics, consumtion was cut in 1/3 but Mobil 1 did not offer any benefit in this aspect. I am now converted to "dino" Delvac for summer and HC for winter for most cars. Consumption is fine now since the internals are cleaned from short ocis. For my personal car, if I did not have a shed full of GC, I'd probally just go with dino/HC oils.
 
Dan the tanker man,

I understand what you're saying. If I had your cars and planned on keeping them as long as possible, I'd clean the engine with either Auto-Rx or Schaeffer's Neutra and use a top quality conventional oil and filter with 5k ODI. I'd clean the automatic transmission and power steering with Auto-Rx and do periodic ATF flushes with a top quality conventional ATF like Chevron. I believe this routine will result in the longest machinery life and the lowest cost per mile.


Ken
 
quote:

Originally posted by pscholte:
Excuse me...I...um-m-m-m...don't suppose this is a good thread...um-m-m...to post something about a certain oil being the Elixer of Life, Lubricity and Loquaciousness and that smells like pommes frittes after a summer rain in the Pyrenees...just call me skittish, I guess...
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Pscholte, your posts are a riot!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOL ever time you post the virtues of the "magic elixer" and how it can actually cure a family members alzheimer's if used in any of the family member's cars.
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While I can certainly understand and even support the FTM and other poster's frugal oil choices and their reasoning behind it, I had an opportunity to dance to the beat of a different drum and do some real life testing to all the hoopla I felt like I was reading on the net and especially BITOG, who in their right mind would spend $4~5 on a quart of oil when you can buy it all day long for $.88. I wanted to see if there was more to the hype than just fluff, I wanted to know if there was any difference. I've tried techron and for me didn't notice much when it wasn't in the tank. I've tried synthetics, blends, $5 quart oil and $1 a quart oil (in several vehicles), if you pay attention and have a vehicle in a good state of tune I know I can hear and feel a difference from the type of oil, but its all relative to what you are used to.

When I started researching oil to a greater amount than I had learned in the past I didn't really understand the difference between 5w30, 10w30 and 10w40 other than the lower the number the thinner they were. I've always practiced 3~3500 mile oil changes and had a sludger of a 2300 ford at 186k one owner miles that had lost a lot of power but no puffs on startup using castrol gtx 10w30. It always bugged me why even doing all the maintenance by the book why the car was as slow as it was and got slower and worse gas mileage with age. Now If I only knew then what I know now I'd have not had sold that car.

I purchased an old 94 mazda b3000 truck with the 3.0L ford v6 in the spring of this year when I really wanted a ford diesel f250/f350. It its heyday the wimpy little mazda should have made 150hp. When I got found it for $500 I thought the motor and tranny may or may not have to come out for replacement but so what at only $500 for a truck with no rust and other than a few dents and dents and dings I figured I could at least use it around the house for picking up sticks, moving, carting stuff off to get fixed, etc. basically a cheap ole utility vehicle. After buying my first I'm convinced that everyone especially homeowners need a truck whether they really think they do or not. Oh and this truck leaked fluid (oil, ATF, coolant) like a half quart a day, had to put it on a drip pan out out way away from the house in the trees and weeds to keep the neighbors from thinking I had a junkyard. I barely made it home in it and worried about the money pit I just purchased. Sure $500 is cheap for a truck but that was only the entry fee, what was in front of me had me greatly worried.

Long story short, I replaced the transmission and stopped those leaks, later I put on a motorguard bypass on the transmission and got a ton of shavings out of the transmission fluid and changed its oil a couple times. I tighted all the bolts on the oil pan and replaced all the coolant hoses, new plugs (old ones were at .095") wires, cap, rotor, pcv, air filter, new motorcraft oil, motorcraft filter, etc. All total over $100 in maintenance, fixed a bunch of vacuum leaks too. The trunk ran pretty good but wheezed to do anything more than 65mph.

I've read the forums over and over. I've searched so many times I can find the link with my eyes closed. I've used auto-rx. I've used lube control, and even fuel power. I've used techron for years, 4-power and others such as STP and Gumout and $1 fuel injection cleaners to notice little other than a lighter wallet. My reasoning for getting on the forums again was to keep an old engine from getting older and hopefully bring a little life back into it.

Ended up reading about auto-rx and researched it, which lead me to BITOG from honda forums and others. Couldn't find much neg feedback from users on the auto-rx product. Thought what the **** , I'm getting in, if it works for the pizza delivery guy in his wore out mazda it will work similarly on my stuff. If I scrutinize my stuff as much as he does and follow the instructions to the letter maybe I can see some gain and payback. Hopefully I will have luck, hopefully it will stop some of the leaks and the truck will make it to 70 w/o most of the gas pedal.

Now fast forward, I'm on the clean phase and have been using chevron supreme 7000 for auto-rx clean/rinse which is about a $1 a quart at costco. I have 6 oz of auto-rx in the tranny, I regularly use 3~4 oz of fuel power in the cheapest gas I can find and have for the last 3000 miles. No longer does the truck wheeze at 65, it goes to 75~80 pretty easily. It doesn't leak or drip oil, it is mild mannered and runs as good as any used car I've ever driven and probably much better than half the ones I've owned even when purchased new. The truck was originally a grandfather's passed down to the son who passed down to two kids and was a high school/college beater vehicle and has not had much maintenance and was maintenance was mostly addressed at the break/fix point.

It is getting 21 mpg now at an effortless 70mph on the highway and just keeps getting better. Its performance/fuel economy is as good as the newer 3.0 mazda b3000/rangers are doing with their fancier EDIS distributorless ignition, upgraded higher flowing intakes and exhaust and advanced tuning. It is a peppy little truck, its no speed demon or boy wonder street racer but it goes, I don't have any problems with it either. It saved me from where I would have normally pulled the engine for replacement. I figure it save me at least 500 by doing good maintenance and the cleaning/flushes and a lot of other headaches and time.

Looking back I don't feel like I wasted anything on the oil/fuel additives, it saved me loads and the opportunity costs of not replaceing the engine or the entire vehicle with a more expensive one in a year or two is worth plenty to me as well. Also its a lot handier to drive on nasty days and to the junkyard to pick up parts for my other neglected basetcase blue ovals... I am glad I stepped out of the comfort zone of cheap products, very few additives provide you anything you pay for, but the afore mentioned products while not cheap provide more than I've paid for and then some.

Many Thanks BITOG...
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[ September 09, 2004, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: phordguy ]
 
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