I don't want a new car!

[SatinSilver]

A friend on the Accord forum went to CarMax to sell their car outright to them. At first they were offered a guaranteed cash price of $9500. But they were smart enough to negotiate the price to $12,000. The car was later put on the website for a special no haggle price of $16,995 iirc. You can haggle with them but it depends on time of month, how long they've had the car etc...

My goal would be to buy it for the private party price and maybe lower. CM has an in- house financing arm and many of their buyers are less price conscious.

 

[jeepman3071]

I find new cars very boring. They all seem the same, and nothing stands out to me. They all seem to make the driving "experience" automated. Pretty soon driving will be more like a computer game than operating a machine. Except for the base models, or sports cars, most don't offer a manual trans.

My Jeep is far from sophisticated. I feel every bump in the road, hear every noise from the suspension, and every rumble from the engine. It is however an extremely fun vehicle to drive, and I enjoy driving compared to viewing it as an annoyance. By feeling the road and the vehicle, I become closer to the driving experience, and focus more on driving, not on other things. My Jeep is impossible to text and drive in, I wouldn't be able to fall asleep in it, and hearing all the different noises keeps me aware of what the vehicle is doing.

I can see why so many people text and drive, talk on the phone, fall asleep, and get distracted while driving new cars. With info-tainment systems, extremely quiet interiors, and traction control, driving in a car feels more like riding in the backseat of a coach bus. Comfortable, yes, but it detaches people from what the vehicle is doing, making it easier for them to get distracted.

 

[kam327]

Prices are NOT going crazy. If anything they're getting better apples to apples. Cars just have a lot more content than they used to which of course you're going to get charged for.

Take my '99 Contour: $17k MSRP w/ 170hp, cloth seats, no notable tech inside. With 2.4% inflation, that would be about $23k today.

Not coincidentally, $23k was the MSRP of my '12 Focus. But my Focus has leather, Sync, 2 LCD screens, USB port, larger alloys, and, oh yeah, gets about 10 mpg better fuel economy.

I'd say I got MUCH more value with the Focus than the Contour 12 years ago.....

 

[hattaresguy]

Newer vehicles are nice because they don't break as much. I'm tired of working on old junk, been their done that.

 

[AP9]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Newer vehicles are nice because they don't break as much. I'm tired of working on old junk, been their done that.


In general, I'd say they are more difficult to work on though.

 

[jrustles]

New cars are great with regard to body, chassis tuning and handling (obvious laz-e-boy models excluded), where they fall short to older rides are:
-paint quality
-electronics built with slow processors/bloated inefficient/dangerous firmware
-actual electronic component quality
-weaker, lighter engines
-taping a cheap tablet to the dash and controlling everything off of it
-garbage "lost foam" casting methods (some mfgrs should be ashamed of themselves)
-anything-by-wire
-excessive option packages
-RFIDs installed deep within the vehicle on various parts
-remote controllablity, self-steering, self-braking ability


NO THANKS

 

[antiqueshell]

New cars MIGHT be more reliable in the short term, but wait until that complicated digital dash fails or some other complex electronic component fails. It will literally cost you a fortune to repair it, thus you will end up buying a new one and junking the old. But we're not talking a decade or more , it might be only 7 or 8 years when these new complex items fail or become troublesome.

Also value for the money is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't consider it better value for the money when I get more electronic trinket [censored] in lieu of better basic hard part quality, and better engineered components.

If you asked me whether I'd prefer a new version of a
1995 Honda Accord vs a 2013 Honda Accord...I'd take the 1995 version every time because the durability of the older version is undoubtedly better than the new. This isn't just restricted to Honda, the same can be said of Toyota, Mazda, and many others as well.

 

[eljefino]

The low-lead solder they used around y2k is quickly proving to be junk. I had a buick century where the "PRNDL" light burns out quite regularly because resistors are literally falling off the circuit board behind.

I googled the problem and there were at least tons of responses on how to fix it. I'd have taken a long time otherwise figuring it out.

We see this junk solder on relay bases, PCM pins, all over.

Then with everything networked together it takes one dud module to bring the whole system down.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

All of the complications on newer vehicles is why I love the absolute base model cars on the market.

If a tree fell on the Focus tomorrow (I hope that does not happen) ... I'll be first in line at a Nissan Dealer to buy a base model Versa.

No power anything to go bad. No fancy radios to distract me from driving by being over complicated to change a station. I don't have to worry about electronic climate control failing. No overly complicated suspension to give problems.

As for the gauge cluster - minimalistic, but it gets the job done. Speedo, odometer, gas gauge. If I want other stuff, I can put an ultragauge in it.

Steel wheels that won't corrode and require daily inflation when the car gets older.

Tires in the stock size are dirt cheap and plentiful.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: AP9
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Newer vehicles are nice because they don't break as much. I'm tired of working on old junk, been their done that.


In general, I'd say they are more difficult to work on though.


Depends, but true. But still you don't have to do much for the first 5-8 years or so.

When I was broke I did the wrenching on old junk on the weekends thing, now I just rather not.

 

[KrisZ]

I think a bunch of guys complaining about new cars being overly complicated are exaggerating a bit. Sure we get more options as standard equipment, but it is mature tech by now. Moon roofs, power windows, locks and other stuff is pretty much solid now. The infotainment stuff, especially the ones that integrate hvac controls into the screen, can pose some problems down the road if the screen fails, but that's hardly the standard, so we have plenty of vehicles with standard controls.

So really I don't get what all the fuss is all about. ABS, traction controls and all other driver assists will not render a vehicle useless if these system have a fault, so one can choose to not fix them if they wish. What else is there that's so scary?

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: morepwr
The problem I have with new cars is how ridiculously complicated they have become with all the electronics. I don't think they will have the same lifespan of older simpler vehicles.


I agree. All these electronic gizmos are nothing but a sales gimmick, and people buy into it hook, line, and sinker. They are also just more things to go bad...I really wish the auto industry would say goodbye to the gizmos and start building super high MPG vehicles and alternative powered vehicles...but that would require some effort on their part...

 

[lovcom]

Cars are easier to diagnose, work on, and fix then ever in the history of cars. Often a tech need only plug the car into their computer, and the car tells the tech which part is faulty, what the problem is, or at least points them in the right direction.

There are too many millions of late model cars that have no solder issues for one to think there is a solder issue. The Buick someone mentioned was not quality made.

I for one welcome more and more electronics. They have made cars better and more reliable. No moving parts!

I will agree however that new cars offer little value because they're priced way too high.

Newer cars are perceived as more difficult to work on only by those that have not kept up, and would rather bad mouth technology then to learn about it. I see this type of thing alot with software developers in their 50's in many places that I consult.

 

[glock19]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: morepwr
The problem I have with new cars is how ridiculously complicated they have become with all the electronics. I don't think they will have the same lifespan of older simpler vehicles.


I agree. All these electronic gizmos are nothing but a sales gimmick, and people buy into it hook, line, and sinker.


I don't know why everyone on BITOG has this point of view. Maybe I'm crazy but I enjoy the a lot of the modern features in a car. Navigation tells me where to go, heated seats keep my butt warm, I enjoy the satellite radio. Sure cars are more complex than they used to be, but they also run much longer and more reliably. Also, I'm not going to suffer just because "one day it might break". So what? The TV in my house might break one day too and it's going to be expensive to replace, does that mean I shouldn't have a TV? Of course not! If you can accept the risk of having nice things in your home why can't you in your car?

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ


So really I don't get what all the fuss is all about. ABS, traction controls and all other driver assists will not render a vehicle useless if these system have a fault, so one can choose to not fix them if they wish. What else is there that's so scary?


In my state an ABS light will cause you to fail inspection and make it illegal to drive your car.

You also can't rip out the ABS stuff if it was originally optioned that way and revert to manual brakes, even if it's all parts bin stuff for your year.

I don't really have sensor or driveability problems on my car that require OBDII, but it narcs on me for EVAP leaks which I probably had on pre- 1996 cars but blissfully never knew. Not sure of a benefit to myself here, either. (I need to pass an OBD-II scan for inspection but earlier cars are exempt.)

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: glock19
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: morepwr
The problem I have with new cars is how ridiculously complicated they have become with all the electronics. I don't think they will have the same lifespan of older simpler vehicles.


I agree. All these electronic gizmos are nothing but a sales gimmick, and people buy into it hook, line, and sinker.


I don't know why everyone on BITOG has this point of view. Maybe I'm crazy but I enjoy the a lot of the modern features in a car. Navigation tells me where to go, heated seats keep my butt warm, I enjoy the satellite radio. Sure cars are more complex than they used to be, but they also run much longer and more reliably. Also, I'm not going to suffer just because "one day it might break". So what? The TV in my house might break one day too and it's going to be expensive to replace, does that mean I shouldn't have a TV? Of course not! If you can accept the risk of having nice things in your home why can't you in your car?


My post was more of a jab at the auto industry rather than consumers. What would you rather have, an alternative powered vehicle offered in a practical body style (one that is large enough to accommodate the buyer's needs and is equipped to the buyer's liking), is also priced competitively with fossil fuel powered vehicles, or would you rather have the same ol' gas powered vehicles that seem to be stuck in the 30 something MPG range, they have to keep adding more and more electronic gizmos to make them attractive? I believe the auto industry would rather have people continue to buy what they're now producing because it's easier for them to keep producing these vehicles rather than having to get the engineers cranked up to produce something different...

 

[glock19]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: glock19
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: morepwr
The problem I have with new cars is how ridiculously complicated they have become with all the electronics. I don't think they will have the same lifespan of older simpler vehicles.


I agree. All these electronic gizmos are nothing but a sales gimmick, and people buy into it hook, line, and sinker.


I don't know why everyone on BITOG has this point of view. Maybe I'm crazy but I enjoy the a lot of the modern features in a car. Navigation tells me where to go, heated seats keep my butt warm, I enjoy the satellite radio. Sure cars are more complex than they used to be, but they also run much longer and more reliably. Also, I'm not going to suffer just because "one day it might break". So what? The TV in my house might break one day too and it's going to be expensive to replace, does that mean I shouldn't have a TV? Of course not! If you can accept the risk of having nice things in your home why can't you in your car?


My post was more of a jab at the auto industry rather than consumers. What would you rather have, an alternative powered vehicle offered in a practical body style (one that is large enough to accommodate the buyer's needs and is equipped to the buyer's liking), is also priced competitively with fossil fuel powered vehicles, or would you rather have the same ol' gas powered vehicles that seem to be stuck in the 30 something MPG range, they have to keep adding more and more electronic gizmos to make them attractive? I believe the auto industry would rather have people continue to buy what they're now producing because it's easier for them to keep producing these vehicles rather than having to get the engineers cranked up to produce something different...


I apologize for the rant. I just get sick of people on BITOG saying anything more than a steering wheel and 3 pedals is superfluous.

I'm totally with you though on creating more efficient vehicles. I wish the auto industry would focus heavily on solving the fossil fuel problem. Frankly, I would consider it a failure if we're still driving cars with internal combustion engines in 20 years.

 

[AP9]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
New cars are great with regard to body, chassis tuning and handling (obvious laz-e-boy models excluded), where they fall short to older rides are:
-paint quality
-electronics built with slow processors/bloated inefficient/dangerous firmware
-actual electronic component quality
-weaker, lighter engines
-taping a cheap tablet to the dash and controlling everything off of it
-garbage "lost foam" casting methods (some mfgrs should be ashamed of themselves)
-anything-by-wire
-excessive option packages
-RFIDs installed deep within the vehicle on various parts
-remote controllablity, self-steering, self-braking ability


NO THANKS


Yeah, I am not even comfortable with throttle-by-wire, and now along comes brake-by-wire? No thanks, especially with OBD-II hacking and malware, following the recent trends of using OBD-II for a lot more than just repair diagnostics and emissions testing.

Slightly off-topic maybe, but frankly, I think these cars that do everything for you (parking assist, lane departure warnings, etc.) are only breeding irresponsibility and inattentiveness among drivers (not all drivers, but many).

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
New cars MIGHT be more reliable in the short term, but wait until that complicated digital dash fails or some other complex electronic component fails. It will literally cost you a fortune to repair it, thus you will end up buying a new one and junking the old. But we're not talking a decade or more , it might be only 7 or 8 years when these new complex items fail or become troublesome.

Also value for the money is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't consider it better value for the money when I get more electronic trinket [censored] in lieu of better basic hard part quality, and better engineered components.


Mostly agreed, but MOST of the U.S. consumers NEVER, EVER keep a car for 3-4 years, let alone 7-8, they just lease a new one and pay the penalty, or take a hit on trade in and outright BUY a newer model (at least that's the standard operating procedure around here, as my car is considered ANCIENT to these 'upscale' yuppiedrones).

But yes, the one who buys that 3-4 year old car WILL have to face those problems you've stated above.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
Often a tech need only plug the car into their computer, and the car tells the tech which part is faulty, what the problem is, or at least points them in the right direction.


IF ONLY the above were true!!

It is the ONLY area where I wish the OBD 2 system were MUCH MORE technical and involved, as there are MANY problems that will NEVER throw a DTC code, which can/will STILL prevent a car from starting, running, or stay running.