I with Bill on this one. Bill is all common sense.
He is one of the few without oil OCD.
He is one of the few without oil OCD.
I can't decide which Synthetic to run ...
- Thread starter ARCOgraphite
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I with Bill on this one. Bill is all common sense.
He is one of the few without oil OCD.
He is one of the few without oil OCD.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No, I'm taking 600HP BB ford and Chevy digger motors, why would I waste my time building a Toy 1.5L? You guys are starting to scare me, maybe it was that Zombie movie I watched last night ...
Lets see what you said above (since you must have forgot...)
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
The Yaris 1.5L 1nzfe is an advanced engine with high specific output - 4v, chain driven DOHC, FLAT tappets, variable valve timing with intelligence, ST-Steel tube headers. 105Hp, 5sp M and 2300 lbs make for a peppy ride. NO one oil I have tried has worked exceptionally well. The best so far has been Motul 8100 econergy 5w-30 SL. Wanted to try Motul xmax or Elf/Total quartz energy 9000 but didnt want to mail order ... Trying American "syns" again. I've been down the PP and GC road and was nonplused.
No mention of any 600hp anything. Only a "advanced" Yaris motor.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Lynch mob mentatlity here - The 'Middle America' the President warned me about.
No we are suggesting (and you are not getting) that there is NOTHING SPECIAL about a Yaris that needs anything but NORMAL OIL.
So I am waiting on the apology calling us a "Lynch Mob".....
Originally Posted By: 7777
This site is not what is use to be,thats for sure.
Been here less than TWO WEEKS?
Let me know how it was... (oh by the way, I agree with you, but I'd love to know you feel its not the same)
Bill
No, I'm taking 600HP BB ford and Chevy digger motors, why would I waste my time building a Toy 1.5L? You guys are starting to scare me, maybe it was that Zombie movie I watched last night ...
Lets see what you said above (since you must have forgot...)
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
The Yaris 1.5L 1nzfe is an advanced engine with high specific output - 4v, chain driven DOHC, FLAT tappets, variable valve timing with intelligence, ST-Steel tube headers. 105Hp, 5sp M and 2300 lbs make for a peppy ride. NO one oil I have tried has worked exceptionally well. The best so far has been Motul 8100 econergy 5w-30 SL. Wanted to try Motul xmax or Elf/Total quartz energy 9000 but didnt want to mail order ... Trying American "syns" again. I've been down the PP and GC road and was nonplused.
No mention of any 600hp anything. Only a "advanced" Yaris motor.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Lynch mob mentatlity here - The 'Middle America' the President warned me about.
No we are suggesting (and you are not getting) that there is NOTHING SPECIAL about a Yaris that needs anything but NORMAL OIL.
So I am waiting on the apology calling us a "Lynch Mob".....
Originally Posted By: 7777
This site is not what is use to be,thats for sure.
Been here less than TWO WEEKS?
Let me know how it was... (oh by the way, I agree with you, but I'd love to know you feel its not the same)
Bill
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: addyguy
There are some UOA's on here that show Yaris's run just fine on conventional 5W-30 oils.
Unless you're going 10k+ on a fill, no need for synthetic.
I stated I had tesioner sticking on the conventionals. Thats my reason. I have no tensioner sticking on the psuedo-synthetics. Current fill = 3+ qts Valvoline synpower + 1/2qt M1 Racing 4T for much improved smoothness and revvability over the synpower alone. I attribute the perceived improvement with the M1R4T coctail to be vis and better EP ADDS.
Then you have a TENSIONER PROBLEM. NOT a OIL PROBLEM. Your "cocktail" is masking a REAL problem.
*If* you are having ANY issue with the Timing chain tensioner with ANY oil then you'd better exercise the warranty before it causes any REAL problem.
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
There are some UOA's on here that show Yaris's run just fine on conventional 5W-30 oils.
Unless you're going 10k+ on a fill, no need for synthetic.
I stated I had tesioner sticking on the conventionals. Thats my reason. I have no tensioner sticking on the psuedo-synthetics. Current fill = 3+ qts Valvoline synpower + 1/2qt M1 Racing 4T for much improved smoothness and revvability over the synpower alone. I attribute the perceived improvement with the M1R4T coctail to be vis and better EP ADDS.
Then you have a TENSIONER PROBLEM. NOT a OIL PROBLEM. Your "cocktail" is masking a REAL problem.
*If* you are having ANY issue with the Timing chain tensioner with ANY oil then you'd better exercise the warranty before it causes any REAL problem.
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
Yes I have a tensioner problem - all my OHC chain cars had the problem. I asert its caused by OIL VARNISHING and sludging on 195F thermo engines. Bill - I like how you pull false statistics out of your hat for your straw man arguments - show me the Yaris Owners survey showing they are having NO PROBLEMS with their engine on conventional oil. In the meanwhile I will stick with the lynch mob mentality until I see a logical argument.
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
Yes I have a tensioner problem - all my OHC chain cars had the problem. I asert its caused by OIL VARNISHING and sludging on 195F thermo engines. Bill - I like how you pull false statistics out of your hat for your straw man arguments - show me the Yaris Owners survey showing they are having NO PROBLEMS with their engine on conventional oil. In the meanwhile I will stick with the lynch mob mentality until I see a logical argument.
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Originally Posted By: ZJohnson
Those were the days - '78 blackbird 6.6 Trans Am with Arco Graphite. i think I still have one of those black round plastic cans.....
My first Mechanic Job was at an Atlantic station, hence the moniker. I recall the Graphite cans were foiled waxed cardboard with tin lids. I used to mix in a 1/2 qt - we blew our roundy-round car up running the sponsered oil! Driver was [censored].
Those were the days - '78 blackbird 6.6 Trans Am with Arco Graphite. i think I still have one of those black round plastic cans.....
My first Mechanic Job was at an Atlantic station, hence the moniker. I recall the Graphite cans were foiled waxed cardboard with tin lids. I used to mix in a 1/2 qt - we blew our roundy-round car up running the sponsered oil! Driver was [censored].
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
[
No we are suggesting (and you are not getting) that there is NOTHING SPECIAL about a Yaris that needs anything but NORMAL OIL.
Bill
So no roller cam, a DOHC chain drive , and VVTi are "nothing special". I say my 2.5 Subaru motor is moreso "nothing special" having no chain drive and having roller rockers and NO tappets -I would agree there, and I run EoM C5000 or RT10w30. Now, tell me what else would the Yaris engine need to make it special - a supercharger?
[
No we are suggesting (and you are not getting) that there is NOTHING SPECIAL about a Yaris that needs anything but NORMAL OIL.
Bill
So no roller cam, a DOHC chain drive , and VVTi are "nothing special". I say my 2.5 Subaru motor is moreso "nothing special" having no chain drive and having roller rockers and NO tappets -I would agree there, and I run EoM C5000 or RT10w30. Now, tell me what else would the Yaris engine need to make it special - a supercharger?
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
Yes I have a tensioner problem - all my OHC chain cars had the problem. I asert its caused by OIL VARNISHING and sludging on 195F thermo engines. Bill - I like how you pull false statistics out of your hat for your straw man arguments - show me the Yaris Owners survey showing they are having NO PROBLEMS with their engine on conventional oil. In the meanwhile I will stick with the lynch mob mentality until I see a logical argument.
You are good. Show me all the Yaris, Corolla and every other chain engine that is having issues with the VARNISHING and sludging on the engines.
And what does 195F have ANYTHING to do with it?
So all the Yaris and other timing chain engines are having problems or if they are not then it is because they are running syn (or a blend)?
Do you really beleive this?
All those engines (millions of them) with sludge and varnish and timing chain tensioner problems out there.
So how long do these engines last before they blow up?
Also nice to ignore what I typed above.
If anyone is pulling something out with no facts, look in the mirror.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
Yes I have a tensioner problem - all my OHC chain cars had the problem. I asert its caused by OIL VARNISHING and sludging on 195F thermo engines. Bill - I like how you pull false statistics out of your hat for your straw man arguments - show me the Yaris Owners survey showing they are having NO PROBLEMS with their engine on conventional oil. In the meanwhile I will stick with the lynch mob mentality until I see a logical argument.
You are good. Show me all the Yaris, Corolla and every other chain engine that is having issues with the VARNISHING and sludging on the engines.
And what does 195F have ANYTHING to do with it?
So all the Yaris and other timing chain engines are having problems or if they are not then it is because they are running syn (or a blend)?
Do you really beleive this?
All those engines (millions of them) with sludge and varnish and timing chain tensioner problems out there.
So how long do these engines last before they blow up?
Also nice to ignore what I typed above.
If anyone is pulling something out with no facts, look in the mirror.
.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No, I'm taking 600HP BB ford and Chevy digger motors, why would I waste my time building a Toy 1.5L? You guys are starting to scare me, maybe it was that Zombie movie I watched last night ...
Lets see what you said above (since you must have forgot...)
No mention of any 600hp anything. Only a "advanced" Yaris motor.
This is what I said in preface to the 600HP thing that brought up the "pushrod" Yokes. "I Cant find a nice running oil in the 5w-30 grade! As an engine builder, I dont worry about whats under the cover between valve clearancing - unless I got a spring problem or a rocker that slipped. Then usually there is that pushrod sticking out of the valve cover."
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No, I'm taking 600HP BB ford and Chevy digger motors, why would I waste my time building a Toy 1.5L? You guys are starting to scare me, maybe it was that Zombie movie I watched last night ...
Lets see what you said above (since you must have forgot...)
No mention of any 600hp anything. Only a "advanced" Yaris motor.
This is what I said in preface to the 600HP thing that brought up the "pushrod" Yokes. "I Cant find a nice running oil in the 5w-30 grade! As an engine builder, I dont worry about whats under the cover between valve clearancing - unless I got a spring problem or a rocker that slipped. Then usually there is that pushrod sticking out of the valve cover."
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
[
No we are suggesting (and you are not getting) that there is NOTHING SPECIAL about a Yaris that needs anything but NORMAL OIL.
Bill
So no roller cam, a DOHC chain drive , and VVTi are "nothing special". I say my 2.5 Subaru motor is moreso "nothing special" having no chain drive and having roller rockers and NO tappets -I would agree there, and I run EoM C5000 or RT10w30. Now, tell me what else would the Yaris engine need to make it special - a supercharger?
Huh?
Either engine does not require any thing than normal API SL/SM oil to run properly with long life. No sludging or varnishing will be found if the oil is changed at proper OCIs.
If someone is putting on a supercharger on a Yaris, I think oil is the less of their problems after making a mod like that.
I've got a Subaru and its about the easiest motor out there on oil.
But just because the Yaris has a timing chain makes it REQUIRE a blend or syn to operate is a incorrect statement. If you are having issues with the tensioner you have a warranty problem.
A Yaris (or any other timing chain motor) will last hundreds of thousands of miles running ANY oil that is rated for the engine.
I know you have never had a engine last more than 40 or 50 thousand of miles (or so you said and I'm tired looking back at your posts to find out what you typed) so I think oil choice is the least of your problems if that is your "normal" engine life.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
[
No we are suggesting (and you are not getting) that there is NOTHING SPECIAL about a Yaris that needs anything but NORMAL OIL.
Bill
So no roller cam, a DOHC chain drive , and VVTi are "nothing special". I say my 2.5 Subaru motor is moreso "nothing special" having no chain drive and having roller rockers and NO tappets -I would agree there, and I run EoM C5000 or RT10w30. Now, tell me what else would the Yaris engine need to make it special - a supercharger?
Huh?
Either engine does not require any thing than normal API SL/SM oil to run properly with long life. No sludging or varnishing will be found if the oil is changed at proper OCIs.
If someone is putting on a supercharger on a Yaris, I think oil is the less of their problems after making a mod like that.
I've got a Subaru and its about the easiest motor out there on oil.
But just because the Yaris has a timing chain makes it REQUIRE a blend or syn to operate is a incorrect statement. If you are having issues with the tensioner you have a warranty problem.
A Yaris (or any other timing chain motor) will last hundreds of thousands of miles running ANY oil that is rated for the engine.
I know you have never had a engine last more than 40 or 50 thousand of miles (or so you said and I'm tired looking back at your posts to find out what you typed) so I think oil choice is the least of your problems if that is your "normal" engine life.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Then you have a TENSIONER PROBLEM. NOT a OIL PROBLEM. Your "cocktail" is masking a REAL problem.
*If* you are having ANY issue with the Timing chain tensioner with ANY oil then you'd better exercise the warranty before it causes any REAL problem.
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
I think this is a chicken or egg quandry. I would love to run Esso Superflo in my car - and it DOES run well until the tensioner sticks. I dont think I can get the Toyota dealer to fix the tensioner nor do I want them tearing into my engine IF I can "fix" it with the "right" oil selection. So is it the oil or is it the engine? Pennzoil Plat claims it cleans up more sluge than the regular YB so is the YB MORE sludge prone and could it possibly contribute to a sticky tensioner? Or in other word , whats wrong with running a clean oil if it keeps the car running well. I not sure about "masking" a problem, I ascert these advanced engines REQUIRE a low sludging lubricant, unfortunately. I'm 1/2 Scotsman, old as dirt, and believe you me, I would prefer to NOT spend time and monies on expensive oils.
Then you have a TENSIONER PROBLEM. NOT a OIL PROBLEM. Your "cocktail" is masking a REAL problem.
*If* you are having ANY issue with the Timing chain tensioner with ANY oil then you'd better exercise the warranty before it causes any REAL problem.
Hundreds of thousands of Yaris motors are just doing great with whatever oil their owner puts in them.
I think this is a chicken or egg quandry. I would love to run Esso Superflo in my car - and it DOES run well until the tensioner sticks. I dont think I can get the Toyota dealer to fix the tensioner nor do I want them tearing into my engine IF I can "fix" it with the "right" oil selection. So is it the oil or is it the engine? Pennzoil Plat claims it cleans up more sluge than the regular YB so is the YB MORE sludge prone and could it possibly contribute to a sticky tensioner? Or in other word , whats wrong with running a clean oil if it keeps the car running well. I not sure about "masking" a problem, I ascert these advanced engines REQUIRE a low sludging lubricant, unfortunately. I'm 1/2 Scotsman, old as dirt, and believe you me, I would prefer to NOT spend time and monies on expensive oils.
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I agree... To take the subject off Toyota for a moment... I had a Mitsubishi 2.6 Litre engine with a timing chain and rubber coated guides as tensioners that needed to be adjusted from time to time to take up the slack in the chain (really stupid design). Anyone that knows these engines know that they had numerous issues with cylinder heads cracking, excess ring wear, valve seals/seats, and timing chains/guides.
It always used dino oil, and SH rated for most of its life and it still saw 460K KM (287K miles) before it died of an electrical fire.
Sure it had a cylinder head replaced and was burning oil like crazy by the end, but the timing chain/tensioner guides never were replaced and this was all on SH rated oil. Today's SM rated oils are far superior to those oils back then so this seriously flawed engine should have seen even more miles IMO.
The only difference that I can think of that led to our success is that we were anal about changing the oil at 3K miles (5K KM). Which made sense with an SH rated oil. Today's dino SM oils in a Prius engine should be able to hit 5K Miles without a problem.
I think it speaks more about the maintenance then the engine, or else you would be seeing a "Toyota Sludger" size lawsuit concerning the Prius & Timing Chain engine that shouldn't use dino.
It always used dino oil, and SH rated for most of its life and it still saw 460K KM (287K miles) before it died of an electrical fire.
Sure it had a cylinder head replaced and was burning oil like crazy by the end, but the timing chain/tensioner guides never were replaced and this was all on SH rated oil. Today's SM rated oils are far superior to those oils back then so this seriously flawed engine should have seen even more miles IMO.
The only difference that I can think of that led to our success is that we were anal about changing the oil at 3K miles (5K KM). Which made sense with an SH rated oil. Today's dino SM oils in a Prius engine should be able to hit 5K Miles without a problem.
I think it speaks more about the maintenance then the engine, or else you would be seeing a "Toyota Sludger" size lawsuit concerning the Prius & Timing Chain engine that shouldn't use dino.
StevieC:
Do you agree that I have a tensioner issue as Bill stated? Some background: My wifes rav4 2azfe had a tensioner issue, my suzuki AerioSX 2.3L had a tensioner issue - thats three in the past 5 years. Most non-mechanics would only notice a bit more noise and never diagnose a tensioner sticking. My wife was oblivious to the "chainsaw-under-oil grinding" going on behind the front cover of the rav 2azfe when it stuck its tensioner.
Do you agree that I have a tensioner issue as Bill stated? Some background: My wifes rav4 2azfe had a tensioner issue, my suzuki AerioSX 2.3L had a tensioner issue - thats three in the past 5 years. Most non-mechanics would only notice a bit more noise and never diagnose a tensioner sticking. My wife was oblivious to the "chainsaw-under-oil grinding" going on behind the front cover of the rav 2azfe when it stuck its tensioner.
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No, I'm taking 600HP BB ford and Chevy digger motors, why would I waste my time building a Toy 1.5L? You guys are starting to scare me, maybe it was that Zombie movie I watched last night ...
Lets see what you said above (since you must have forgot...)
No mention of any 600hp anything. Only a "advanced" Yaris motor.
This is what I said in preface to the 600HP thing that brought up the "pushrod" Yokes. "I Cant find a nice running oil in the 5w-30 grade! As an engine builder, I dont worry about whats under the cover between valve clearancing - unless I got a spring problem or a rocker that slipped. Then usually there is that pushrod sticking out of the valve cover."
Nope. You were only talking about a Yaris motor before this post. That is what ALL of us were referencing. You then brought up pushrods.
So if you are referencing a Yaris motor, bring up that it is "advanced" and needs syn or a at the min a blend to "fix" your tensioner "issues" expect us to continue with that mindset.
Then you throw in pushrods?
Lets bring this to a close.
Your Yaris NEEDS oil. Any NORMAL oil that is rated API SM is going to work fine. If the oil does not and you have tensioner "issues" then get it fixed.
The tensioner WILL WORK FINE with ANY rated oil. MILLIONS do EVERYDAY.
If you think I'm pulling that out of my hat so be it. But it is a FACT.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No, I'm taking 600HP BB ford and Chevy digger motors, why would I waste my time building a Toy 1.5L? You guys are starting to scare me, maybe it was that Zombie movie I watched last night ...
Lets see what you said above (since you must have forgot...)
No mention of any 600hp anything. Only a "advanced" Yaris motor.
This is what I said in preface to the 600HP thing that brought up the "pushrod" Yokes. "I Cant find a nice running oil in the 5w-30 grade! As an engine builder, I dont worry about whats under the cover between valve clearancing - unless I got a spring problem or a rocker that slipped. Then usually there is that pushrod sticking out of the valve cover."
Nope. You were only talking about a Yaris motor before this post. That is what ALL of us were referencing. You then brought up pushrods.
So if you are referencing a Yaris motor, bring up that it is "advanced" and needs syn or a at the min a blend to "fix" your tensioner "issues" expect us to continue with that mindset.
Then you throw in pushrods?
Lets bring this to a close.
Your Yaris NEEDS oil. Any NORMAL oil that is rated API SM is going to work fine. If the oil does not and you have tensioner "issues" then get it fixed.
The tensioner WILL WORK FINE with ANY rated oil. MILLIONS do EVERYDAY.
If you think I'm pulling that out of my hat so be it. But it is a FACT.
How do I get the the dealer to recognise the tensioner sticking issue if it isnt grinding when I bring it in?
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
StevieC:
Do you agree that I have a tensioner issue as Bill stated? Some background: My wifes rav4 2azfe had a tensioner issue, my suzuki AerioSX 2.3L had a tensioner issue - thats three in the past 5 years. Most non-mechanics would only notice a bit more noise and never diagnose a tensioner sticking. My wife was oblivious to the "chainsaw-under-oil grinding" going on behind the front cover of the rav 2azfe when it stuck its tensioner.
As a son of a mechanic, and a BITOG nut. I'm convinced you need a tensioner. I can't speak as to why in this vehicle or in the others that you have owned, what caused the problem but it sounds like a tensioner to me and not the oil choice.
Millions of cars were and continue to be eqipped with timing chain systems and 99% of those do not require the use of syn oil and these engines go on to see some pretty high miles just using bulk-dino at iff-boob places with terrible quality filters like the entry level FRAM's.
Using a syn oil in the Yaris engine will not offer you any greater tensioner life than the dino will. Syn's advantages, IMO are mainly for extreme temperatures like arctic cold winters and racing/performance engines (not a Yaris engine).
If you need some more food for thought... Think about the Yaris for a minute. It's a compact car aimed at value conscious consumers. Why would they build it to require an expensive oil change using syn when most of their premium performance Lexus models run just fine on Dino? Does
n't make a lick of sense to me. Just to add to the logic that the tensioner is most likely your problem and not the oil.
FWIW all the Yaris vehicles I have seen and/or serviced with my dad, not one has had issues running dino oil and 2 of these handful of vehicles I know don't see regular oil changes and are probably lacking in other areas of maintenance as well.
StevieC:
Do you agree that I have a tensioner issue as Bill stated? Some background: My wifes rav4 2azfe had a tensioner issue, my suzuki AerioSX 2.3L had a tensioner issue - thats three in the past 5 years. Most non-mechanics would only notice a bit more noise and never diagnose a tensioner sticking. My wife was oblivious to the "chainsaw-under-oil grinding" going on behind the front cover of the rav 2azfe when it stuck its tensioner.
As a son of a mechanic, and a BITOG nut. I'm convinced you need a tensioner. I can't speak as to why in this vehicle or in the others that you have owned, what caused the problem but it sounds like a tensioner to me and not the oil choice.
Millions of cars were and continue to be eqipped with timing chain systems and 99% of those do not require the use of syn oil and these engines go on to see some pretty high miles just using bulk-dino at iff-boob places with terrible quality filters like the entry level FRAM's.
Using a syn oil in the Yaris engine will not offer you any greater tensioner life than the dino will. Syn's advantages, IMO are mainly for extreme temperatures like arctic cold winters and racing/performance engines (not a Yaris engine).
If you need some more food for thought... Think about the Yaris for a minute. It's a compact car aimed at value conscious consumers. Why would they build it to require an expensive oil change using syn when most of their premium performance Lexus models run just fine on Dino? Does
n't make a lick of sense to me. Just to add to the logic that the tensioner is most likely your problem and not the oil.
FWIW all the Yaris vehicles I have seen and/or serviced with my dad, not one has had issues running dino oil and 2 of these handful of vehicles I know don't see regular oil changes and are probably lacking in other areas of maintenance as well.
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I'm sorry but I love talking about Arco Graphite. A friend of mine retired from Arco. I take every opportunity to kid him about it. I remember looking at it in the auto parts stores. I briefly considered using it then I heard about a guy that put it in his car and it started knocking like it was about to blow. He drained it out and put in his regular brand and the car was fine. Probably no truth in this but it is a nice story.
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