I called Purolator about PL14610 flow rate.

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think the higher restriction of the P1 matters too much. My guess is the flow is about 3 gpm at the RPMs you stated. That said I wouldn't run a PI longer than about 5K miles or maybe 8K or the full recommend OCI, but never reuse and run it two OCI. Why not just use a Purolator classic. It's more efficient than the Honda filter and probably less restrictive than a P1.


Because the Classic has a nitrile adbv, and they seem to let oil by, at least in my engine, cause it to have more start up tick than i liked. What would be "too high" psid for a filter, i see you said the purolators higher restriction wouldnt matter too much.


Hmmm, STRANGE! The Puro Classic 14610 has helped stop the notorious startup rattle in my rattle ridden Altima compared to just about anything else that I've tried including the P1.

Even though I am currently using the P1 with good success, it does give my more startup rattle than the Classic. IDKY!

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think the higher restriction of the P1 matters too much. My guess is the flow is about 3 gpm at the RPMs you stated. That said I wouldn't run a PI longer than about 5K miles or maybe 8K or the full recommend OCI, but never reuse and run it two OCI. Why not just use a Purolator classic. It's more efficient than the Honda filter and probably less restrictive than a P1.


Because the Classic has a nitrile adbv, and they seem to let oil by, at least in my engine, cause it to have more start up tick than i liked. What would be "too high" psid for a filter, i see you said the purolators higher restriction wouldnt matter too much.


Hmmm, STRANGE! The Puro Classic 14610 has helped stop the notorious startup rattle in my rattle ridden Altima compared to just about anything else that I've tried including the P1.

Even though I am currently using the P1 with good success, it does give my more startup rattle than the Classic. IDKY!


That is strange. Just goes to show different engines like different filters.

 

[RF Overlord]

greg, I don't want to further confuse the issue, but it seems like your engine has the tick with multiple brands of filter. As Z06 mentioned, perhaps there is something else going on with your engine that is just being exposed by your choice of filter, not being caused by it.

Maybe you have a sticky lifter, or one that bleeds down faster than the others once the motor is stopped.

 

[danthaman1980]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
That is strange. Just goes to show different engines like different filters.


True statement.

The nice thing about having to change oil and filters every so often is you can tinker around and figure out what YOUR engine likes.

The Wix/Napa Gold option should be somewhere in between the OEM and P1 with regard to flow vs. filtration. Ditto to the M1, K&N, Puro Syn, Napa Plat, and Motorcraft options, all of which should have silicone ADBVs. I have never owned a Honda automobile so I can't recommend any of the above in particular reference to your application, but I've tried all of them on my truck (save the Napa Plat and Motorcraft) and my engine was happy with each of them.

 

[72Cude426]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Ok, what would your recommendation of "in between" be?


As mentioned above several times, WIX/NAPA Gold/CarQuest (all identical) is THEE in-between filter. It should filter better than the Honda and be less restrictive than the Purolator Pure One. It is the high quality filter choice for those of us who strattle the fence, walk the middle of the road.

If you search BITOG over the past 10 years for posts comparing WIX vs. P1, the anecdotal consensus here is:

Wix is "better built", flows better, filters less

vs.

Pure One is "lesser built", flows less, filters better.

Wix/Napa Gold/Car Quest is your next filter to try.

If you have any qualms of WIX being off brand vs. Fram, Purolater, etc., DON'T. Because of their availabilty and HUGE range of applications (vehicles,ag. construction,grounds, cycles, etc.) I would wager they might be the most used filters in the U.S. for commercial use. My workplace uses them on literally millions of dollars of vehicles and equipment. If you visit me, I can get all the WIX oil filters you want at $3.60 each with my workplace discount.


Ok does the wix for the honda 2.4 have a silicone adbv?


Yes

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: gregk24

That is strange. Just goes to show different engines like different filters.


That is absolutely true. I have had vehicles that could care less what was on them, (most in fact) and one now that has been amazingly picky. Yet the Motorcraft FL-400S will make it happy. Just find one that gives you quiet starts and forget about it. Even the sieve Honda filter will get you to 400k.

 

[gregk24]

Thanks guys for the help....I have a Honda A01 and PureONE (got it on amazon for $3) I may try napa gold once I run through these two filters. Or may (probably)just stick with OEM as long as there are no ill effects, hoping to do a UOA with the PU and A01 I have on now. I hope its not an issue with my engine that some of you are suggesting. It seems pretty clean, oil has been changed with synthetic for a year and a half now, at short intervals, so i hope its clean anyway. So i dont think thats the problem.

 

[gregk24]

actually i think ill start keeping track of the ticking...how many times a start up results in the ticking and how many starts are normal...maybe that would help, then after a week or so i could post the results.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: gregk24
If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?


I've asked you a few time some specific questions about your "tick", but never hear an answer. We need to know more specifics on when the tick occurs and doesn't occur.

1) Is the tick only on cold starts after the car's sat a while?
2) Is the tick all the time while the engine is running and the oil is hot?
3) Have you EVER had a filter that doesn't cause any tick?
4) How many miles are on this car?

Maybe your oil pump is shot or there is some other oiling system issue going on, and no filter will stop the tick.


I have answered but i dont mind answering again
1)It does tick a little on the first start of the morning, it doesnt sound unusual. It makes this noise only upon start up. Usually after about 3-4 hours after the car has been driven, its the loudest then. Its a single tick, not multiple ticks.

2) no it doesnt happen when the car is running and hot. Again it only happens on start up. now that i think about it, its happened a couple times after getting gas. It happens upon start after filling up.

3) I just started changing my own oil. the shop used napa pro select, yes it ticked with that, i used a fram ultra, ticked less but still happened, now have a honda oem a01 and ticks the least with this.

4) 113,700 miles.

OH AND....this tick is intermittent, which i guess is a good thing, idk. It seems to happen once a week maybe. if that. Just a single tick tick tick tick that quiets down after a couple seconds. Sounds like a valve or something doesnt have oil at first then once the oil makes it there its goes away. Hope this helps.


Some comments to your above answers.

Sounds like a lifter might be bleeding down if it sits awhile. You saying it's a "single tick" makes me think it might be a lifter ticking until it pumps back up as the engine runs a bit after a cold start-up. I'm assuming this car has hydraulic lifters, but maybe not (?). I'm not familiar with the inner workings of this engine, so need to know if it has hydraulic lifters or not.

Since the tick never goes away entirely with the use of different filters at start-up, and goes away after the engine runs a minute and is even intermittent at times, makes me think it's something besides the filter. But what filter you use may make a difference due to how well the filter's ADBV works. If one filter has a better ADBV, then it could cause a difference in what you perceive as ticking at start-up.

Also, if it never really ticks after it runs a minute after start-up, it's a sign that the oiling system is bleeding down somehow when the engine is off. Especially if it ticks for a bit after you start-up after filling up with gas, which means the engine is still hot and only shut off for a short time. None of this ticking at start-up is due to the "restrictiveness" of the filter. It's either the oiling system bleeding down regardless of the filter in use, and/or the filter's ADBV is also magnifying the bleed down of the oiling system and that's why different filter's might seem to make a difference in start-up ticking.

 

[dnewton3]

Oh, Zee, you're making too much sense out of this.

Don't you realize that blaming oil and filter is the easiest thing to do???

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
.....Genearlly, any decent filter will pass way more than the engine needs, so "flow" capability is pretty much irrelavent....

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
.....None of this ticking at start-up is due to the "restrictiveness" of the filter. It's either the oiling system bleeding down regardless of the filter in use, and/or the filter's ADBV is also magnifying the bleed down of the oiling system and that's why different filter's might seem to make a difference in start-up ticking.

But you guys are using science to reach your conclusions, not internet rumor and anecdotal speculation. That's just not acceptable.

And contrary to the belief/conclusion espoused on the recent companion Honda A-02 thread that oil filter flow is the most important consideration, as stated above there's just no science to back that conclusion. I suspect that had most to do with promoting use of the relatively inefficient oem filter.

Nevertheless, I'm sure oil filter flow will continue to be incorrectly identified as the cause of engine noise.

 

[mechanicx]

He's probably just hearing piston slap or valve lash noise (maybe the engine needs a valve clearance adjustment) that varies with temperature (engine and ambient).

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think the higher restriction of the P1 matters too much. My guess is the flow is about 3 gpm at the RPMs you stated. That said I wouldn't run a PI longer than about 5K miles or maybe 8K or the full recommend OCI, but never reuse and run it two OCI. Why not just use a Purolator classic. It's more efficient than the Honda filter and probably less restrictive than a P1.


Because the Classic has a nitrile adbv, and they seem to let oil by, at least in my engine, cause it to have more start up tick than i liked. What would be "too high" psid for a filter, i see you said the purolators higher restriction wouldnt matter too much.


Hmmm, STRANGE! The Puro Classic 14610 has helped stop the notorious startup rattle in my rattle ridden Altima compared to just about anything else that I've tried including the P1.

Even though I am currently using the P1 with good success, it does give my more startup rattle than the Classic. IDKY!

And in addition to my statement, I have had good success with the lesser NAPA ProSelect Filter though, I have never tried the NAPA GOLD to see how it would work.

Just commenting!

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
now that i think about it, its happened a couple times after getting gas. It happens upon start after filling up.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Just a single tick tick tick tick that quiets down after a couple seconds. Sounds like a valve or something doesnt have oil at first then once the oil makes it there its goes away.
As I stated earlier, and Z06 reiterated, that sounds like a lifter bleeding down or a clearance that is too great.

Originally Posted By: gregk24
when i changed the oil and used fram ultra, the engine knocked for a couple seconds, not long at all, until everything pressurised. When i changed the oil and used honda filter no knocking, and it pressurized just as quick as a regular start.
That's due to the ADBV, not the efficiency or flow rating of the filters.

My Mercury Marauder makes no noise after a filter change. My ex-wife's Marauder makes the typical "nuck-nuck-nuck" sounds for a few seconds until the oil pressure gauge starts to read. Both cars get Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 and an MC filter, so go figure.

 

[bullwinkle]

My 2012 E-250 with the 2V 4.6 will make a cold start rattle, even with a new MC FL-820S, if it sits overnight, still under 40K & with regular 5K OCIs. Some engines are just inherently noisy when cold, IMHO, for at least a few seconds.

 

[rrounds]

I get a laugh on oil pump flow. Over on Sk2i they say the F20 Honda engine flows 58.4L a minute. How they measure that flow, I don't know. Is that just spinning the pump under no oil pressure? Because I don't think my F22 engine can flow 1/4 that under 100 psi that my engine makes at anything over 6000 rpm. At 58.4L a min. that would be a little over 61 quarts a min. or a little over 1 qt. a second, no way from a oil pump on a car engine.

["In the (2000- 2003) service manual

Section 2-10 "Specs"

Design Specifications -> Engine -> Oil Pump Displacement :
@ 6000 RPM, 58.4L per minute"]

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah I would think that flow rate if accurate is at 0 psi. But in an actual engine with restriction and at around 70-100 psi the flow rate would be a lot less. I'd imagine the oil pump would hit presure relief way before those flow rates. Heck even the oil filter would probably be going into bypass. Oil pumps are oversized at high RPM so as to provide adequate pressure at low RPM.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah I would think that flow rate if accurate is at 0 psi. But in an actual engine with restriction and at around 70-100 psi the flow rate would be a lot less. I'd imagine the oil pump would hit presure relief way before those flow rates. Heck even the oil filter would probably be going into bypass. Oil pumps are oversized at high RPM so as to provide adequate pressure at low RPM.


Yep, and to add ... if a positive displacement oil pump is 100% efficient (meaning no leakage past the internal parts), then it will pump X volume at Y RPM and have a linear flow vs RPM curve. The oil volume has to go someplace as the oil pressure builds due to engine oiling circuit resistance. That's the job of the pressure relief valve on the oil pump to divert any volume that doesn't go through the engine so something doesn't explode due to the massive oil volume at higher RPM trying to be crammed through the pretty resistive engine oil circuit.

Theoretically, if the positive displacement oil pump didn't have a pressure relief valve, and if the pump didn't have internal leakage, the pressure would build to some very high value until something blew up. That's what causes oil filters to balloon up or burst open, when the pump's pressure relief valve malfunctions and doesn't divert excess oil volume, thereby causing the oil pressure to sky rocket.

 

[dnewton3]

Yup - I have seen that happen in real time. You'll know it when it happens. Upon my honor, this is a true exceprt from the Lawrence Township MSD garage back in summer 1987; goes like this in a matter of a few seconds:

(crank, crank, crank)
vroom ...
tink, tink
metalic POP!
running liquid whoosh
"What the (cursing) was that?"
"SHUT IT DOWN! SHUT IT DOWN!"

More cursing. Cleaning up mess. Fill crankase; install new filter; blame old filter.

(crank, crank, crank)
vroom ...
tink, tink
metalic POP!
running liquid whoosh
"SHUT IT DOWN! IT DID IT AGAIN! SHUT IT DOWN!"
"Hmmmmm .... You think these filters are bad?"


(Some folk are slow learners.)

 

[Hokiefyd]

This engine (Honda K24) does not have hydraulic lifters.