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The current school of thought is also ultra high volume/low pressure. They use the oil as much as a coolant as it is a lubricant.
I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
- Thread starter AEHaas
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But the company is talking about a RACE OIL. Since they have already said not to use this oil on the street, logic demands that we read "some older engine designs" as "some older race engine designs." This is not talking about street engines or street use.quote:
Originally posted by TallPaul:
But also says:quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
Yeah, so? What's so unusual about having a warning that says a pure racing oil should not be used on the street?quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
DOES ANYBODY SEE THE WARNING?
Which I take to mean that some engines can't properly pump too thin of an oil in all circumstances. While we may not be "under race conditions," towing and/or just good old fun hard driving could be too much for an older engine with 5w20.
What was meant is that fuel economy is selected based on vehicle and engine size, not on oil grade to conserve fuel.
The engines are generally more economical and more efficiently suited for the job. For eg. they don't put 5+L engines in the average family sedan...and then expect people to save fuel by using a 'fuel economy' grade and changing it every 3k/3mo.
The engines are generally more economical and more efficiently suited for the job. For eg. they don't put 5+L engines in the average family sedan...and then expect people to save fuel by using a 'fuel economy' grade and changing it every 3k/3mo.
ooookayy there GI Joe, take it easy.. with all due respect, youre wayy off base with that 'Americans know most' about automotive issues... i mean completely left field with that onee.... besided its common knowledge that Europe has higher standards when it comes to ... anything that matters... pretty much. All North American standards are strictly based on liability and profit genertion [/blatant generalization]
I called Fuchs today bc I wanted to see if they were going to start selling oils here. I was directed to their Baltimore, MD division. I talked to a very informative guy who gave me some good info that goes along with things said here on BITOG.
Fuchs is on the cutting edge of lubricant technology according to him. I told him about BITOG and he was aware of it. He had good things to say about RL, Amsoil and M1. He said for daily driver cars, he recommended a OTC synthetic like a Mobil 1/Amsoil. Said both were good quality. He said ester based Synthetics like Silkolene, which is available here, and RL, are best choices for racing and real hard driving conditions. He was very honest and said for someone like myself, a PAO retail synthetic would serve me well.
He said I wouldn't really see the benefits of using a RL/FUCHS ester based synthetic. I have to agree.
I then mentioned the 0w-20/CAFE argument. He said 99.9% of most US cars/drivers don't demand a thicker oil or even an ester oil. 80mph driving on the highway in my car doesn't call for it essentially. It can be used, but not necessary.
So I guess if your really pushing your car hard, and driving at really high speeds is when I'd look to an A3 Amsoil/RL or Fuchs type oil, otherwise it's over kill. BTW, all the analysis on here suggests this is true. He went on to mention that technology is much better then it used to and it's not as simple as it seems.
Fuchs lays low according to him in the US for competitive reasons. The guy was very nice, and extremely honest. He flat out said, for me, I'd be better served using a M1/Amsoil. If I were into hard core racing, then move to an ester based sythetic. He basically saying, I don't need to go through the hassle of importing Fuchs 0w-20 for my application and that the PAO M1/Amsoils etc. are perfectly fine.
Somtimes we ignore the obvious. If the UOA's look good, why switch? If your 3.1 HT/HS gives you great wear, and didn't shear in your application, why move? Makes ZERO sense. Tooslick said it earlier and that is as the engine ages, then you'll start wanting to use a thicker oil. I'm finally getting exhausted of this subject.
With all due respect you say? And then you call me an eastern canadian insult, like "GI Joe"? Please!
And what kind of statement is that about Europe having higher standards in "anything that matters"? So what is Canada known for having higher standards for.....maple syrup? Seriously, Europe makes some great cars and even a few other good products. But to compare it to the U.S. in terms of having "higher standards", is a complete joke. Morally higher? Nope. Better standard of living? Not many that I know of. Better standards in legal justice/freedom? Nope. Better standards in aircraft production? No, Airbus is not as good as a Boeing aircraft...ask a pilot. Better standards of personal grooming? Not in a million! Ever get downwind of some of those people?
Enough said.
Lets get back to the 20w oil debate!
CAFE is going up 0.6 mpg for light trucks in '05 and 1 mpg in '06. Gee (my Ford hat is on) where will we get that? Hmmm, maybe we can reduce parasitic power losses from the oil pump.
Come on guys, if 20 weights are good all round lubricants, why do they need 4 or 5 times the moly for boundary lubrication?
What happens to engine sludging/varnish with a lighter, presumably more volatile base stock?
Its nice to have a thin oil alternative for fuel economy, but I wish the manufacturers could give us a range of grades for varying operating conditions - eg pre-CAFE.
Its absolutely clear to me that 20 weights are CAFE driven, as were mandated 5w-30 "preferred" grades before.
Effectively the goofy CAFE rules are being watered down since it has remained fixed for cars at 27.5 mpg, where it has been since 1990. They should be scrapped altogether IMO.
If the government wants to limit fuel consumption, instead of sneaking in behavior modification via CAFE, let them come clean and tax the demand side by raising fuel taxes, not supply IMHO.
Come on guys, if 20 weights are good all round lubricants, why do they need 4 or 5 times the moly for boundary lubrication?
What happens to engine sludging/varnish with a lighter, presumably more volatile base stock?
Its nice to have a thin oil alternative for fuel economy, but I wish the manufacturers could give us a range of grades for varying operating conditions - eg pre-CAFE.
Its absolutely clear to me that 20 weights are CAFE driven, as were mandated 5w-30 "preferred" grades before.
Effectively the goofy CAFE rules are being watered down since it has remained fixed for cars at 27.5 mpg, where it has been since 1990. They should be scrapped altogether IMO.
If the government wants to limit fuel consumption, instead of sneaking in behavior modification via CAFE, let them come clean and tax the demand side by raising fuel taxes, not supply IMHO.
"Good pitching will alway sbeat good hitting, and vice versa"
No biggie just used a few simple formulas and the subtotal function in excel. I am really wondering about that 10w40 point though. IF that is repeatable...I just might be willing to give up a few mpg for that wear ...Wow!
Silkolene Dyno test with 0W20
http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip6.htm
Elf and French Engineering
http://www.renaultf1.com/php/top.ph...amai.com/6753/viry_rs24/viry_rs24_220.wmv&t=0
Interesting that Race oils are very thin but Rally Car oils are usually 5W40
http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip6.htm
Elf and French Engineering
http://www.renaultf1.com/php/top.ph...amai.com/6753/viry_rs24/viry_rs24_220.wmv&t=0
Interesting that Race oils are very thin but Rally Car oils are usually 5W40
quote:
Originally posted by andrews:
With all due respect you say? And then you call me an eastern canadian insult, like "GI Joe"? Please!
And what kind of statement is that about Europe having higher standards in "anything that matters"? So what is Canada known for having higher standards for.....maple syrup? Seriously, Europe makes some great cars and even a few other good products. But to compare it to the U.S. in terms of having "higher standards", is a complete joke. Morally higher? Nope. Better standard of living? Not many that I know of. Better standards in legal justice/freedom? Nope. Better standards in aircraft production? No, Airbus is not as good as a Boeing aircraft...ask a pilot. Better standards of personal grooming? Not in a million! Ever get downwind of some of those people?
Enough said.
Lets get back to the 20w oil debate!
wow, youre so ignorant its not funny. you insult in all seriousness, i insult in joke. you reply in all seriousness... with a joke. go figure. Compare DOT to EU or JIS standards. Compare US automakers to European and Japanese automakers in quality, ergonomics and technology. Its the difference between a Cadilac and a Maybach. There is no comparison. you wanna talk socially (personal grooming, who honestly comes up with points like that
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My daddy is better than your daddy.
One day when I have time I would love to do a search of BITOG to find out if the people who love xW20s are the same people who bag Mobil 1 5/10W30 for being too "thin"
Let's assume these numbers are scientifically sound.
What is their meaning in terms of wear? If it totals to 0.001 inches on the cylynder wall who cares? We need a correlation here and I do not know what that would be.
aehaas
Patman
Staff member
Guys, let's keep the name calling out of this and just stick to the discussion at hand, thanks.
Hello everyone! Resident lurker here..
(flame suit on) I have been reading these posts for nearly a year and have gained some incredible insight into the world of OIL. You have some very knowledgeable people who are consistently telling it like it is. Whether you like it or not most people here are using OPINION to justify their beliefs. On one hand we say that UOA's are the way to go and justify using a particular elven magic elixer, then go on to bad mouth XW-20 even though their UOA's come back similar and in some cases even better. What gives. I am a rookie in all of this and do not pretend to have any idea what I am talking about when it comes to HTHS, TBN, Etc.....
However I come here to LEARN from those that do know, yet we blast them because we want so dearly to hold on to our beliefs it clouds our judgement and name calling and insults are the result. How many times have you read a post and gone, OK yeah that makes sense. It seems to me many people just have ideas in their minds, one way or the other (Thick or Thin) and will not even consider what is blatently in front of them. I happen to have 2 vehicles that "REQUIRE" 5w-20, and will use that as the warranty issue looms, however I am not yet convinced either way. This next oil change I will add 1-2 quarts of 5w-30 Havoline SM for the summer to make sure because I DO see compelling evidence for both sides. I do think the 5-20's are "built" better, but are inherently to thin
I am not all that impressed with Mobil 1 5-30 as I have used it in at least 4 different vehicles to see what the hoopla is all about. My 3.5 Honda did not like it, but loved the Havoline 5-30 (Consistent lifter tick with Mobil1 gone with Havoline) My Mazda 6 has seemed to do quite well on MC 5-20 and ran a bit rough on Penzoil 5-20. As is stated consistently, no one oil is good for every vehicle, or every oil company would stick to a single formula that works best. Maybe 5-20 doesn't work for your application and 15-40 does
, but is it possible that 5-20 COULD work good for me
I guess the test of time will tell. Thank you all for the great information, maybe I'll be back before another year
I think the issue is three fold: (1) performance reserve; (2) which oil, if stressed REALLY hard will continue to give the good UOAs, and (3) who do you believe regarding why 5W-20s appeared in the first place. I do not believe that a 2.9cP or less 5W-20 (or any oil) has the reserve under serious stress that a 3.5+cP does. (I know AEHAAS has taken his 575 to the strip with [I'm guessing] 0W-20 in it but a few runs at the strip aren't enough data especially in an engine built like a Ferrari. Give me 1000 cars of all makes, including some less sterlingly built ones, and let's see what happens.) I think everyone should comes to grip with, "what do you want." If you don't need a significant reserve or don't push your card hard, the lesser HT/HS oil should be fine. If you do need it, etc etc. I believe that most people are going to believe what they want to about this whole issue so each should do what he or she wants to and is comfortable with. As for me, I am convinced that 3.5+ is the way to go; many of you are convinced another way...the best I can say is:
[ April 19, 2005, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
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