I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Hybrids Only Excel in City Driving?
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Originally Posted By: bepperb
So I guess my question would be, why can't/don't they make a Camry FE special with that engine? Does an Atkinson Cylcle engine just that terrible of a driving experience?
Too low power without the extra electric motor?
Interestingly, Mazda offered 2.3L Miller cycle (Atkinson with supercharge) in their Millenia some time ago. It was considered an expensive solution at that time (2000-2003).
So I guess my question would be, why can't/don't they make a Camry FE special with that engine? Does an Atkinson Cylcle engine just that terrible of a driving experience?
Too low power without the extra electric motor?
Interestingly, Mazda offered 2.3L Miller cycle (Atkinson with supercharge) in their Millenia some time ago. It was considered an expensive solution at that time (2000-2003).
Here are some screen captures directly from Toyota TIS (Tech Info System, the source for on-line service and reference pubs).
Notice the massive difference in intake valve closure timing between the hybrid and non-hybrid versions of the 1NZ engine. There's your Atkinson-cycle operation being implemented. Of course, on the FXE version, you can see that all the intake closings take place later than in the non-hyb version. So I guess one could argue that the FXE is always in Atkinson-cycle operation, though the extent of A-C operation is widely variable, depending upon how the ECU is interpreting driver input and conditions.
Notice the massive difference in intake valve closure timing between the hybrid and non-hybrid versions of the 1NZ engine. There's your Atkinson-cycle operation being implemented. Of course, on the FXE version, you can see that all the intake closings take place later than in the non-hyb version. So I guess one could argue that the FXE is always in Atkinson-cycle operation, though the extent of A-C operation is widely variable, depending upon how the ECU is interpreting driver input and conditions.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
You would perhaps be tempted to think so, but, when you consider that the just-released brand new Prius, now with the larger ICE (the 1.8L 2ZR-FXE) is already substantially out-mileaging (yeah, I know that's not a word...) the newly released, and smaller Jetta TDI, there wouldn't seem to be much economic incentive to go that route. But then again, who knows where the future will take us.
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
You would perhaps be tempted to think so, but, when you consider that the just-released brand new Prius, now with the larger ICE (the 1.8L 2ZR-FXE) is already substantially out-mileaging (yeah, I know that's not a word...) the newly released, and smaller Jetta TDI, there wouldn't seem to be much economic incentive to go that route. But then again, who knows where the future will take us.
I don't know why it seems to always be "gas/electric hybrid vs. diesel".
They're two completely different technologies, using two different fuels, to achieve the same goal if decreased fuel consumption.
Having spend a lot of time driving both, and owning a diesel truck, I alone can verify that each technology accelerates the vehicle when you depress the accelerator pedal
The efficiencies of engine star/stop and regenerative braking are amazing, especially in city driving. Hybrids excel in this type of driving.
And the fact that I can achieve 20 mpg on the highway in a three-and-a-half ton diesel truck is equally amazing. Diesels excel in steady-state driving.
They're two completely different technologies, using two different fuels, to achieve the same goal if decreased fuel consumption.
Having spend a lot of time driving both, and owning a diesel truck, I alone can verify that each technology accelerates the vehicle when you depress the accelerator pedal
The efficiencies of engine star/stop and regenerative braking are amazing, especially in city driving. Hybrids excel in this type of driving.
And the fact that I can achieve 20 mpg on the highway in a three-and-a-half ton diesel truck is equally amazing. Diesels excel in steady-state driving.
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Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Interestingly, Mazda offered 2.3L Miller cycle (Atkinson with supercharge) in their Millenia some time ago. It was considered an expensive solution at that time (2000-2003).
interesting, yes; fun to work on, no. plus parts are extremely expensive, they also generally dont cross over to any other model. getting phone calls for those from backyard mechanics is fun.
Interestingly, Mazda offered 2.3L Miller cycle (Atkinson with supercharge) in their Millenia some time ago. It was considered an expensive solution at that time (2000-2003).
interesting, yes; fun to work on, no. plus parts are extremely expensive, they also generally dont cross over to any other model. getting phone calls for those from backyard mechanics is fun.
Originally Posted By: robbobster
I don't know why it seems to always be "gas/electric hybrid vs. diesel".
They're two completely different technologies, using two different fuels, to achieve the same goal if decreased fuel consumption.
. . .
I don't know why it seems to always be "gas/electric hybrid vs. diesel".
They're two completely different technologies, using two different fuels, to achieve the same goal if decreased fuel consumption.
. . .
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Cost and complexity. The emission control systems on new diesel cars are generally complex. There also isn't a sbig a difference between diesel efficiency and Atkinson cycle efficiency as there is between conventional Otto cycle and Diesel.
Diesel electric locomotives as used in the US aren't hybrids. They only use the electric generator motor system as a transmission or brake and don't have anyway to store energy like a hybrid does.
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Cost and complexity. The emission control systems on new diesel cars are generally complex. There also isn't a sbig a difference between diesel efficiency and Atkinson cycle efficiency as there is between conventional Otto cycle and Diesel.
Diesel electric locomotives as used in the US aren't hybrids. They only use the electric generator motor system as a transmission or brake and don't have anyway to store energy like a hybrid does.
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Cost and complexity. The emission control systems on new diesel cars are generally complex. There also isn't a sbig a difference between diesel efficiency and Atkinson cycle efficiency as there is between conventional Otto cycle and Diesel.
Diesel electric locomotives as used in the US aren't hybrids. They only use the electric generator motor system as a transmission or brake and don't have anyway to store energy like a hybrid does.
I believe some of the newer locomotives are adding hybrid systems. As it is really trivial to add to the current setup as the braking produces electricity that can be easily routed to a bank of batteries instead of a resistive coil that turns it into heat.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Cost and complexity. The emission control systems on new diesel cars are generally complex. There also isn't a sbig a difference between diesel efficiency and Atkinson cycle efficiency as there is between conventional Otto cycle and Diesel.
Diesel electric locomotives as used in the US aren't hybrids. They only use the electric generator motor system as a transmission or brake and don't have anyway to store energy like a hybrid does.
I believe some of the newer locomotives are adding hybrid systems. As it is really trivial to add to the current setup as the braking produces electricity that can be easily routed to a bank of batteries instead of a resistive coil that turns it into heat.
Originally Posted By: wapacz
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Cost and complexity. The emission control systems on new diesel cars are generally complex. There also isn't as big a difference between diesel efficiency and Atkinson cycle efficiency as there is between conventional Otto cycle and Diesel.
Diesel electric locomotives as used in the US aren't hybrids. They only use the electric generator motor system as a transmission or brake and don't have anyway to store energy like a hybrid does.
I believe some of the newer locomotives are adding hybrid systems. As it is really trivial to add to the current setup as the braking produces electricity that can be easily routed to a bank of batteries instead of a resistive coil that turns it into heat.
I don't believe any are in regular use yet, if any are it's very few. Which is one of the reasons I sad "as used in the US".
GE is working on a hybrid long haul locomotive, but a switch engine with all it's starts and stops in normal operation would make more sense to me.
Edit: Looks like someone is working on that
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/10/hybrid_locomoti.html
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I can't wait for the hybrid turbo diesel. This would a true winner in the competition (except for cost I guess). Locomotives used that solution for a loooong time.
Cost and complexity. The emission control systems on new diesel cars are generally complex. There also isn't as big a difference between diesel efficiency and Atkinson cycle efficiency as there is between conventional Otto cycle and Diesel.
Diesel electric locomotives as used in the US aren't hybrids. They only use the electric generator motor system as a transmission or brake and don't have anyway to store energy like a hybrid does.
I believe some of the newer locomotives are adding hybrid systems. As it is really trivial to add to the current setup as the braking produces electricity that can be easily routed to a bank of batteries instead of a resistive coil that turns it into heat.
I don't believe any are in regular use yet, if any are it's very few. Which is one of the reasons I sad "as used in the US".
GE is working on a hybrid long haul locomotive, but a switch engine with all it's starts and stops in normal operation would make more sense to me.
Edit: Looks like someone is working on that
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/10/hybrid_locomoti.html
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Technology required to get a diesel to meet current emissions regs is very expensive. And proposed CA standards that are on the table may make diesel unavailable in states that adopt CA standards.
One nice thing about a series hybrid...you can get rid of a lot of the complexity in the gas engine. Since it should theoretically only power a generator, one would think that it could run at a constant RPM, so variable valve timing and the like could be simplified or eliminated.
One nice thing about a series hybrid...you can get rid of a lot of the complexity in the gas engine. Since it should theoretically only power a generator, one would think that it could run at a constant RPM, so variable valve timing and the like could be simplified or eliminated.
Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
If it's a 2nd generation Prius (2004-2009), then his mpg sounds about right. I had a 2008 Prius rental that I drove very hard. By very hard, I mean 75 mph cruising and lots of full throttle on Highway 17. At the end of the 80 mile trip, the onboard computer showed 40 mpg.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
If it's a 2nd generation Prius (2004-2009), then his mpg sounds about right. I had a 2008 Prius rental that I drove very hard. By very hard, I mean 75 mph cruising and lots of full throttle on Highway 17. At the end of the 80 mile trip, the onboard computer showed 40 mpg.
Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
I drove an 04 Prius for over two years (my son has it now), and except for one lone tank of fuel (during which I left the AC on max, and had a very full load of family, dog, and cargo), I simply could not make the thing dip below 40 mpg. I saw 39 on that one tank, but literally ALL others were 42 and up, with a couple happy excursions a tad above 50. Your friend either has a car with a problem, or he is doing something very wrong with it.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
I drove an 04 Prius for over two years (my son has it now), and except for one lone tank of fuel (during which I left the AC on max, and had a very full load of family, dog, and cargo), I simply could not make the thing dip below 40 mpg. I saw 39 on that one tank, but literally ALL others were 42 and up, with a couple happy excursions a tad above 50. Your friend either has a car with a problem, or he is doing something very wrong with it.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
I drove an 04 Prius for over two years (my son has it now), and except for one lone tank of fuel (during which I left the AC on max, and had a very full load of family, dog, and cargo), I simply could not make the thing dip below 40 mpg. I saw 39 on that one tank, but literally ALL others were 42 and up, with a couple happy excursions a tad above 50. Your friend either has a car with a problem, or he is doing something very wrong with it.
He has had a few electrical problems with it, but he keeps the engine well maintained. He did say if he drives at 60-65 MPH and no air the mileage does improve.
Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
I drove an 04 Prius for over two years (my son has it now), and except for one lone tank of fuel (during which I left the AC on max, and had a very full load of family, dog, and cargo), I simply could not make the thing dip below 40 mpg. I saw 39 on that one tank, but literally ALL others were 42 and up, with a couple happy excursions a tad above 50. Your friend either has a car with a problem, or he is doing something very wrong with it.
He has had a few electrical problems with it, but he keeps the engine well maintained. He did say if he drives at 60-65 MPH and no air the mileage does improve.
tig:
I'm sure you son is trying, but just from that post, he still has much to learn about how to drive a Prius. I recommend you and he check out some of the Prius-specific sites, such as Priuschat.com which is a good one. There is no reason to be in the 30s with that car on a regular basis.
Another thing, unlike most other cars, turning the AC off will actually LOWER your mileage in a Prius (maybe this is why he's doing so poorly in mpgs). Have you noticed that strange looking vertical vent in the back seat, about where the right-outboard passenger's elbow and shoulder are? That's the battery cooling vent. These cars make clever, dual use of conditioned air. First it cools the cabin, and then the battery uses the "stale" cool air for its own cooling. So if you try to "sweat it out," all you're doing is making the battery "sweat it out" too. If the ECU reads that it is not being cooled adequately, it will protect it by limiting both the amount of charge in or out, and the rate of charge allowed in or out. Bottom line is more use of the gas engine, and lower mpgs.
This car actually has a very effective and efficient AC. Set a reasonable temp, put it on auto, and forget about it. And watch your mpgs go up.
I'm sure you son is trying, but just from that post, he still has much to learn about how to drive a Prius. I recommend you and he check out some of the Prius-specific sites, such as Priuschat.com which is a good one. There is no reason to be in the 30s with that car on a regular basis.
Another thing, unlike most other cars, turning the AC off will actually LOWER your mileage in a Prius (maybe this is why he's doing so poorly in mpgs). Have you noticed that strange looking vertical vent in the back seat, about where the right-outboard passenger's elbow and shoulder are? That's the battery cooling vent. These cars make clever, dual use of conditioned air. First it cools the cabin, and then the battery uses the "stale" cool air for its own cooling. So if you try to "sweat it out," all you're doing is making the battery "sweat it out" too. If the ECU reads that it is not being cooled adequately, it will protect it by limiting both the amount of charge in or out, and the rate of charge allowed in or out. Bottom line is more use of the gas engine, and lower mpgs.
This car actually has a very effective and efficient AC. Set a reasonable temp, put it on auto, and forget about it. And watch your mpgs go up.
Hybrid - new top of the line with beneficial technology
Diesel - old technology being strangled by new government mandated technology.
If I was my wife, I would buy a Prius, but since I am me, and I don't know of too many Prii? that make over 200hp/300tq, I will stick to the diesel dreams. And 10 minutes on priuschat told me that my worldview would not let me buy a prius.
Diesel - old technology being strangled by new government mandated technology.
If I was my wife, I would buy a Prius, but since I am me, and I don't know of too many Prii? that make over 200hp/300tq, I will stick to the diesel dreams. And 10 minutes on priuschat told me that my worldview would not let me buy a prius.
Originally Posted By: Shaman
Hybrid - new top of the line with beneficial technology
Diesel - old technology being strangled by new government mandated technology.
Different animals for different missions. But not a bad characterization.
Originally Posted By: Shaman
If I was my wife, I would buy a Prius, but since I am me, and I don't know of too many Prii? that make over 200hp/300tq, I will stick to the diesel dreams. And 10 minutes on priuschat told me that my worldview would not let me buy a prius.
Oh c'mon now -- are you going to allow a bunch of strangers on a website to define your transportation solutions? I assure you, I am not the "typical hybrid owner" if there is such a thing.
Hybrid - new top of the line with beneficial technology
Diesel - old technology being strangled by new government mandated technology.
Different animals for different missions. But not a bad characterization.
Originally Posted By: Shaman
If I was my wife, I would buy a Prius, but since I am me, and I don't know of too many Prii? that make over 200hp/300tq, I will stick to the diesel dreams. And 10 minutes on priuschat told me that my worldview would not let me buy a prius.
Oh c'mon now -- are you going to allow a bunch of strangers on a website to define your transportation solutions? I assure you, I am not the "typical hybrid owner" if there is such a thing.
A bonus with the I4 Toy hybrids is easy maintenance, long-lasting brakes, as well as the great mileage.
Heck a couple weeks ago I even changed the PSD (that's "transmission" for the uninitiated) fluid myself. Like working on a differential: drain hole and fill hole.
Battery-death seems to be a non-issue with the Toyotas, but the boards show some unlucky Honda owners.
I was considering 'clean diesel' for a possible future vehicle, but I don't like being owned by the dealership for much of the maintenance I should be able to do myself if I so choose. Not to mention the time that will be spent at dealerships once the sensors and other components start messing up in that exhaust system. I figure it'll take a few years of production changes to get it 'right'.
On topic: I easily get consistent >40 mpgUS in spring/summer/fall driving mostly highway. In winter, it drops to high 30's with the snow tires; mid-high 30's if I let it warm up.
Not too shabby really.
Edit: 07 Camry hybrid almost 50k miles
Heck a couple weeks ago I even changed the PSD (that's "transmission" for the uninitiated) fluid myself. Like working on a differential: drain hole and fill hole.
Battery-death seems to be a non-issue with the Toyotas, but the boards show some unlucky Honda owners.
I was considering 'clean diesel' for a possible future vehicle, but I don't like being owned by the dealership for much of the maintenance I should be able to do myself if I so choose. Not to mention the time that will be spent at dealerships once the sensors and other components start messing up in that exhaust system. I figure it'll take a few years of production changes to get it 'right'.
On topic: I easily get consistent >40 mpgUS in spring/summer/fall driving mostly highway. In winter, it drops to high 30's with the snow tires; mid-high 30's if I let it warm up.
Not too shabby really.
Edit: 07 Camry hybrid almost 50k miles
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Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
I should also add that I'm doing almost that well in my Camry Hybrid. Something's wrong with the car or his technique.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a friend has a Prius and he swears he only gets 37-39 highway at 70-75 MPH with the ac on.
I should also add that I'm doing almost that well in my Camry Hybrid. Something's wrong with the car or his technique.
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