As one of those who had nothing good to say about Hybrids and their implementation for a few years. I have to say it is pretty amazing just how far the Hybrid battery and electric motor systems have come in 7 short years. As the topic of Hybrid battery pack reliability and replacement cost has become a topic in another unrelated thread...I thought this might be a good place to relay some recent facts for those who still think a Hybrid represents substantially higher repair costs...the reality may surprise some...at least those among us willing to actually look at the facts.
Some interesting quotes below regarding Hybrid tech...all links available upon request....
"What makes a reliable hybrid car battery, anyway? Craig Van Batenburg, chief executive officer of the Automotive Career Development Center in Worcester, Mass., cites the 2004 Ford Escape hybrid as a model for a winning system. The Sanyo-manufactured pack(edit...production has since been on shored to Rawsonville, MI) is managed by sophisticated computer software, and an active cooling system keeps the pack at optimum operating temperature. "It's pretty much bulletproof," he said.
And therein lies the problem of determining what a hybrid battery pack costs to replace.
"It's difficult to pinpoint the exact cost of replacing today's hybrid batteries because so few are being replaced," said Bradley Berman, editor of HybridCars.com, adding that cost also depends on dealership and labor expenses. Toyota estimates their battery failure rate at less than one percent -- and that number is dropping. So, how much can you expect to pay for a replacement hybrid battery? "The best ballpark figure is between $2,000 and $3,000, although battery packs can be found much cheaper in junkyards that have wrecked hybrids," Berman said."
"Ford currently has 380,000 electric motors in the field packed inside the 190,000 hybrids sold so far, says DailyTech, and out of that number of electric motors not a single one has failed so far."
"Yellow Cab in San Francisco first added Ford hybrids to its fleet in fall 2004, with 10 Escapes, said Hal Mellegard, assistant manager of the taxi outfit. He said the reliability and fuel savings have been so surprising that now about half his fleet is Ford Escape Hybrids.
At the event, Ford showed off these durable parts of one of Yellow Cab's Escapes, which had racked up some 260,000 miles of usage. Part of Ford's findings about its battery cell durability were based on records from Yellow Cab.
Gray said he drove the taxi before its engine was dismantled and was very pleased with the way it performed. "Taxis are a very tough test bed for an automotive product because of the severe mileage and stop-and-go traffic."
"Bradly Berman, founder and editor of HybridCars.com and PluginCars.com, says that he is not surprised by Consumer Reports' test results. "For years, I've been seeing reports from Prius-driving taxi drivers, who have clocked 200,000 miles or more, and they've reported virtually no degradation of the battery or vehicle performance," says Berman. "There have been similar reports on HybridCars.com and other sites from individual long-distance hybrid drivers.
"This is not to say that absolutely no owners of first-generation hybrids have had to replace battery packs," adds Berman. "There have been a few, but my guess is that it's a single percentage point or two. By and large, these hybrid battery packs are way over-engineered. The carmakers were worried about battery longevity, and its potential impact on consumer acceptance, so they went overboard to make sure that the batteries would last longer than any other component of a conventional car."
....oh and just a couple of tidbits for you guys out there who swallow what CR offers up to you hook line and sinker...heres another quote for you...is this independent and "certified" anough?...lol...
"Gray also noted that Consumer Reports ranked Ford's Fusion Hybrid as the most reliable sedan - hybrid or conventional gas model. And, owners gave the Fusion a 91% "overall vehicle quality" score vs. 80% and 71% for the Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima hybrids, respectively."
"The engineers at Consumer Reports recently decided to answer those questions by taking a 2002 Prius with 208,000 miles on it, and putting it through its paces. The magazine's testers hooked the car up to its testing instruments to see if battery performance and fuel efficiency had degraded, and if so, by how much. As part of the evaluation, the engineers also checked into battery replacement costs.
The upshot? They found that there was very little difference in battery performance, fuel economy and acceleration in the used '02 model when compared to a nearly identical 2001 Prius they tested 10 years ago when it was new.
The tests recently conducted on the old '02 model are the same ones they performed on the new '01 model 10 years ago. They drove on their own track, ran it through a city traffic course, and took it out on the freeway.
The detailed results: The '02 Prius with 208,000 miles on it got 40.4 mpg overall, compared to 40.6 mpg for the '01 Prius when it was brand new. Highway fuel economy for the old, used Prius was 48.3 mpg, compared to 48.6 mpg on the new Prius back in '01. And in the city, the numbers were 32.1 mpg compared to 30.5 mpg, respectively."
Hybrid Battery Pack Reliability
- Thread starter LS2JSTS
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The main point is "<span style="font-style: italic">By and large, these hybrid battery packs are <span style="color: #FF0000">way over-engineered</span>. The carmakers were worried about battery longevity, and its <span style="color: #FF0000">potential impact on consumer acceptance</span>, so they went overboard to make sure that the batteries would last longer than any other component of a conventional car</span>."
I can say that I have never sold a High Voltage Traction Battery due to the component being defective. The only ones I have ever sold were ones that were damaged in an accident.
I like to keep a car for life, so if they last 15 to 20 years I would be ok with that. We'll see about that. 
That aside, the thought of needing two engines doesn't make any sense to me at all. Unnecessary complexity, complication and expense, the Ford Fusion Hybrid is one DAM EXPENSIVE midsize family sedan. Too expensive really.
Also from a resources angle if you are looking for the environmental aspect it definitely takes more materials and manufacturing processes to produce a typical hybrid compared to the competitive diesel, that is a waste of resources.
That aside, the thought of needing two engines doesn't make any sense to me at all. Unnecessary complexity, complication and expense, the Ford Fusion Hybrid is one DAM EXPENSIVE midsize family sedan. Too expensive really.
Also from a resources angle if you are looking for the environmental aspect it definitely takes more materials and manufacturing processes to produce a typical hybrid compared to the competitive diesel, that is a waste of resources.
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From my reading it the trannies and invertors that sometimes fail in hybrids (but still very rarely).
This technology is very mature and very reliable.
JHZR2
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We have gotten Li-ion cells to a failure rate of less than one in 10^7 cells. And this is with a less stable chemistry in many ways.
There is nothing wrong with overdesign, as most every part in a vehicle has some element of it. We could say the same about the radiator, the torque capability of the transmission, etc., etc.
The biggestissue is that the cost of Ni and Li are high enough that it makes it very difficult to practically accept hybrids as cost savers, even given the cost of extensive emissions equipment on conventional cars. That said, the benefits are there, and the ROI will likely be there for most all buyers.
The biggest issue is that the ROI is small (though cars are always a loosing proposition, so ANY ROI over even 10 years is a winning thing) and the time to payback is too long.
Originally Posted By: urchin
That aside, the thought of needing two engines doesn't make any sense to me at all. Unnecessary complexity, complication and expense, the Ford Fusion Hybrid is one DAM EXPENSIVE midsize family sedan. Too expensive really.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
How about the fuel pump expense?
Any non-hybrid car is ridiculously expensive in that regard.
BTW, I paid only 21k for my 2010 prius.
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Its amazing that they can make hybrid batteries so they last,but buy a replacement starting battery and you cant get 5 years out of them.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
How about the fuel pump expense?
Any non-hybrid car is ridiculously expensive in that regard.
BTW, I paid only 21k for my 2010 prius.
They should over engineer everything on a car.....lol
But what do replacement hybrid batteries cost if you need them replaced? what is the cost?
Originally Posted By: spasm3
But what do replacement hybrid batteries cost if you need them replaced? what is the cost?
Quote:
So, how much can you expect to pay for a replacement hybrid battery? "The best ballpark figure is between $2,000 and $3,000, although battery packs can be found much cheaper in junkyards that have wrecked hybrids," Berman said."
Originally Posted By: spasm3
But what do replacement hybrid batteries cost if you need them replaced? what is the cost?
"But five years into production, Honda has discovered that its high-tech batteries can die years early, a potentially expensive flaw that the automaker has been addressing with a software update that many owners claim has made the car less environmentally friendly."
"...Honda had swapped out more than 4% of the batteries in the 2006-08 Civic hybrids in California, exceeding the agency's threshold for acceptable failure and triggering the regulatory meeting. Honda's policy is not to replace the battery until it's completely dead."
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/14/business/la-fi-honda-20100815
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Just looked up a 2005 Escape Hybrid:
8M6Z-10B759-B MSRP is $9416.13
What can you say but "OUTRAGEOUS"!
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Originally Posted By: Skid
"But five years into production, Honda has discovered that its high-tech batteries can die years early, a potentially expensive flaw that the automaker has been addressing with a software update that many owners claim has made the car less environmentally friendly."
"...Honda had swapped out more than 4% of the batteries in the 2006-08 Civic hybrids in California, exceeding the agency's threshold for acceptable failure and triggering the regulatory meeting. Honda's policy is not to replace the battery until it's completely dead."
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/14/business/la-fi-honda-20100815
Definitely a Honda problem. A family member's 05 HCH is just fine, but every 06+ HCH owner is living in fear.
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