Hybrid Battery Pack Reliability

[urchin]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Definitely a Honda problem. A family member's 05 HCH is just fine, but every 06+ HCH owner is living in fear.


No, it is a Honda AND a hybrid problem.

There is no expensive, vulnerable battery pack in a diesel or gas engined only car.

 

[d00df00d]

No one disputes the fact that hybrid technology adds quite a number of possible failure points compared to a regular internal combustion engine. This is quite a different matter from whether hybrids on the whole are significantly less reliable.

Here are a few more things that cars don't have: wings that can snap off, turbine engines that can suck in birds, and wheel retraction systems that can get stuck. Airplanes have all of those things, and more. Would you seriously propose that airplanes are therefore less reliable than cars? I hope not.

Complaining about possible failure points, as you have done in more than one thread, gets us nowhere. If we want to talk about overall real-world reliability, we need actual data. LS2JSTS has provided some for his side of the case. If you don't like it, you are free to reject it. In fact, I probably share a lot of your skepticism. However, rejecting it does not legitimize opposing claims. Going beyond skepticism and actually making positive assertions requires evidence.

So, again, I ask you: where is yours?

 

[urchin]

There is actual independent data that confirms that the typical diesel gets better mpgs than the typical competitive hybrid , not only that but you must drive the hybrid differently to obtain the best mpgs compared to the typical diesel which can be driven just like your normal gas engined car.

Just in the past couple of years Toyota was taken to task because owners complained that they were falling far short of advertised mpg ratings on the Prius, and indeed it was found to be true.

I think the story was in the NYT or possibly Automotive News.

 

[d00df00d]

And that has what to do with reliability?

 

[spasm3]

I'll just skip the hybrids. I could buy 3 engines for my escape for what one battery pack costs.

 

[stephen9666]

Does anyone have any actual prices for other battery packs, or other years of the Escape?

I don't know if that one is an outlier.

EDIT -

I just looked up the cost of a 2010 and 2007 Prius battery. The parts website won't tell me the part number, but here are the links and costs.

http://parts.olathetoyota.com/toyotaoemparts.html
2010 Prius battery. To find it, pick the Prius and year from the drop down menu. Then go to "Hybrid Components" then "Battery."
Cost $2183.48. There's also a $1350 core charge.

2004 - 2009 Prius battery from toyotapartscheap.com
Cost $2070.94 + $1350 core charge.


So, these batteries are considerably less expensive than the Escape battery.

 

[mva]

The Prius has proven to be very reliable.

There is a fellow on priuschat "2 fas 4 u" that has put over 430,000 miles on a Prius with the original hybrid battery, engine, electric motors and tranny.

There are several other owners in the 200,000 to 300,000 mile range on the original battery.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/79235-299-999-mile-club-44.html

Here is another example:

"Just rolled past 232,000 miles - It is uncanny, I have NEVER owned a car that has been this dependable. I am STILL on the original brake pads and repeatedly am told that I have plenty of pad to spare, other than routine servicing I've only had to replace tires and preemptively replaced the serpentine belt as a 'just-in-case'. I showed my girlfriend the odometer and she asked me why I don't get a new car? I told her that this car has asked me to put so little into it that I'd be willing to spend some money on it before I have to let it go (hopefully someday way in the future

Every mile I drive (and I drive over 100 miles a day in my commute) I am just amazed and 'waiting'..... So far so good! What a car!!!"

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/57091-200-000-mile-club-25.html

 

[mva]

Another example from priuschat's kabrady:

"2006 - purchased new 03/2006
267,800 Miles
Batteries, inc. 12v original
Only work done has been the OEM scheduled maintenance
Except for the first two oil changes I have used Mobil 1
Uses apx 1 qt oil every 4k
Mainly drive highway miles - 65-80 mph, 1/3 of commute is slow/stop and go
Change oil between 5-6500 miles
Most the oil changes performed at Toyota
I do not know the lifetime MPG - alot better than my 2002 Tahoe"

 

[The Critic]

There are always going to be some high mileage examples of priuschat that are OK because they are vehicles that accumulate a high number of miles in a short period of time.

When batteries are put through a more "normal lifespan," with a longer time period, things are less certain. I am starting to read about a few more battery failures recently on the 2g Prius cars, usually in the 125-150k range. These cars are usually operated in very hilly regions (CO) or in very hot areas (AZ) and the batteries begin to shows signs of significant performance degradation at that time. This is not to say that this will become a common trend, but that's what I have read reports of recently.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
I'll just skip the hybrids. I could buy 3 engines for my escape for what one battery pack costs.


You'll never need to buy a battery for an Escape hybrid, at least at the dealer. Failures are exceedingly rare, and as a result used batteries from salvage yards are of little value. I've seen them as cheap as $300.00 from low-mileage vehicles. I researched this pretty heavily when I bought my last car and the Escape hybrid was on the list. So, the exorbitant retail price of the battery is of little concern.

In terms of reliability, it's probably more reliable that the regular AT Escape, given that the transmission is less prone to failure. I just couldn't justify the purchase price.

 

[bdcardinal]

The Escape battery is more due to its sheer size it is huge. Here is one we were babysitting for a body shop while they did welding on the vehicle.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: urchin
That aside, the thought of needing two engines doesn't make any sense to me at all. Unnecessary complexity, complication and expense


Of course you DO understand how many parts aren't required in a drivetrain using Toyota's system before making such claims, DON'T YOU ?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: urchin
There is no expensive, vulnerable battery pack in a diesel or gas engined only car.

Only expensive, frequently overcomplicated, and oft fragile transmissions

 

[meep]

^^^there are so few gears in that hybrid trans, that you can barely call it a transmission!!^^^

no clutches, syncros, solenoids, brakes..... a single, simple, planetary gearset. Basically, a torque-biased differential.

M

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: urchin

Just in the past couple of years Toyota was taken to task because owners complained that they were falling far short of advertised mpg ratings on the Prius, and indeed it was found to be true.

I think the story was in the NYT or possibly Automotive News.



Please find me the link.

I beat EPA MPG in every tank. Lifetime MPG is 52 in my Prius.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
There are always going to be some high mileage examples of priuschat that are OK because they are vehicles that accumulate a high number of miles in a short period of time.

When batteries are put through a more "normal lifespan," with a longer time period, things are less certain. I am starting to read about a few more battery failures recently on the 2g Prius cars, usually in the 125-150k range. These cars are usually operated in very hilly regions (CO) or in very hot areas (AZ) and the batteries begin to shows signs of significant performance degradation at that time. This is not to say that this will become a common trend, but that's what I have read reports of recently.


Of course. Everything falls in a curve. It's just you insurance type folks that try to lump everyone into bins to maximize profit

The narrower a range you keep the chemistry in a battery, the better. The lower depth of discharge the better. The cooler the better.

Side reactions and chemical instabilities as well as bulk chemical ageing all occur.

Certain conditions expedite it, others dont.

Id venture to guess that a regular car that is operated in CO or AZ may live a vastly different life than one that is used in the lap of luxury and taken to the Mission Ranch in Monterey CA as its routine drive!

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Please find me the link.

I beat EPA MPG in every tank. Lifetime MPG is 52 in my Prius.


My lifetime average after 14k+ has been 44-45 mpg. I do a lot of driving around the Central Coast and I have found that the slightest grade can prevent you from getting 50. In completely flat areas, such as most of the San Jose and Sacramento areas, 50-55 is easily attained. Consumer Reports averaged 44 in their testing, which IMO is a far more realistic figure for most drivers since they are using any tricks to attain that number.

 

[cb450sc]

I have 229000 km on my 2003 Civic Hybrid. It has the original battery but the CVT transmision was replaced just prior to me getting it at 65000 km. I get 40 miles per(imperial) gallon in the winter and 50 in the summer. Love the car. I hope to have it at least another five years.

 

[Y_K]

Aside from moral/ethical/environmental/safety/what-not issues, all I know that Prius took the local taxi-cab business by storm. Especially when early adopters pushed through 400k mile mark. none that I know of with a battery that needed a replacement. Instrument cluster in earlier generation was the big issue, but that has been long gone.
Again, the issue of how much pollution your Prius caused mining for its rare earth content in China/Brazil/? is a totally separate from dependability and durability..

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Please find me the link.

I beat EPA MPG in every tank. Lifetime MPG is 52 in my Prius.


My lifetime average after 14k+ has been 44-45 mpg. I do a lot of driving around the Central Coast and I have found that the slightest grade can prevent you from getting 50. In completely flat areas, such as most of the San Jose and Sacramento areas, 50-55 is easily attained. Consumer Reports averaged 44 in their testing, which IMO is a far more realistic figure for most drivers since they are using any tricks to attain that number.


CR MPG testing always gives surprisingly low numbers and it's not realistic IMHO.

The real life results are here: http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius

Since you have 2011 Prius, people average 48.8 MPG in 2011 model. This is above the hwy EPA.

Yes, MPG will depend greatly on how you drive and where you drive. However, in my experience (both commuting to work as well as long hwy trips), similar routes gave me always below EPA MPG results in conventional cars vs above EPA in Prius. Part of this is Prius will teach you better driving skills if you pay attention to its displays.