Can a Hybrid Powertrain be viewed as a "Premium Upgrade"

[wag123]

Not sure if I agree with that one until I do some data-logging to validate. Even in an Atkinson Cycle engine, there is potentially room within the calibration to take advantage of the higher octane. The knock retard can be monitored and graphed with scan tools to validate your argument.

If we end up with the hybrid, I'll put this on my long-term to-do list.

The points that I am trying to make are that the hybrid doesn't NEED or require premium, it won't hurt anything by running 87 octane, and even if the engine management system can give you more ignition advance using premium, the benefits (if any) will not come anywhere close overcoming the price difference. If it gives you the "warm and fuzzies" by running premium in it, then by all means run it and pay the difference.
Back to the MPG difference. Everyone that I have talked to who owns a turbocharged engine vehicle does not get the rated MPG in the city. Some people get close to it and some people get FAR worse. In the case for hybrids, most people that I have talked to get right at the rated MPG and some get even better. Case in point, a buddy of mine purchased a new Highlander hybrid AWD last September and he has tracked his MPG from day 1. He has consistently gotten 35 mpg, right at the EPA MPG rating, and he doesn't drive like a grandma. The RX is rated 1 MPG higher. He also tried premium in it because his owner's manual said that it would get better gas mileage when using it. It didn't, so he went back to 87 octane. Most of the people with the 2.4L Turbo engine are reporting around 20 to 21 MPG in the city, but some are only getting 16 to 17 MPG. Nobody that I have talked to is getting 24 MPG in the city. This is typical of turbocharged engine vehicles.
Something else to consider, the battery pack is improved from earlier hybrids. Also, it is now mounted INSIDE the vehicle under the 2nd row seat where it gets cooler interior air, and it has active cooling fans. Furthermore, the battery is far easier to repair/replace in it's current location. Toyota has also learned a LOT about how to keep the battery deterioration down and has incorporated changes in the hybrid system computer algorithm to accomplish this. I believe that the battery life concerns have become a non-issue.

 

[The Critic]

The points that I am trying to make are that the hybrid doesn't NEED or require premium, it won't hurt anything by running 87 octane, and even if the engine management system can give you more ignition advance using premium, the benefits (if any) will not come anywhere close overcoming the price difference. If it gives you the "warm and fuzzies" by running premium in it, then by all means run it and pay the difference.

We will agree to disagree until I see the data to validate your position. Knock sensors do work, but they are not perfect - so I would be hesitant to be fully reliant on them.

But I appreciate and agree with the rest of your information, especially with regard to the changes in hybrid battery location.

 

[meep]

2 week married to the owner of a RAV4 hybrid. This power train is far more sporting to drive than it should be. The price difference to go from ICE to hybrid was 2k, or 5% of the vehicle cost. No brainer.

My DD is a 2.7L ecoboost. There is a little turbo lag and then gymnastics with the 10 speed transmission. The hybrid drivetrain almost feels like a pre-emissions carburetor because the torque is instant at the pedal. Toyotas AWD pushes more than you’d expect at first launch, and below 15 mph or so. It’s more fun to drive than it should be. IF we were to make the purchase again, we would stay the same.

 

[JHZR2]

Batteries will have finite life. I don’t know if one is more premium than another.

At one point they were trying hybrid 6-cyl designs that got more power but did neither performance or efficiency well. Now it seems they’re trying to bias to efficiency more.

I would be considerate of the battery replacement factor, but imo I wouldn’t let it sway me a lot. Especially with low use it will last a long time. People tend to swap cars before they age out.

I’d buy the one that is outfit the best and has the most attractive cost of operation. Assuming the cost of ownership isn’t obscene.

 

[NH73]

For a low mileage driver living in the suburbs IMO it is questionable but living in near a big city where it can spend most of its time in electric mode absolutely.

Don't discount that suburbs aren't ideal for hybrids, because they are. Now if someone is doing a lot of highway driving, that is where it isn't worth it and also doing a lot of 3-4 mile short runs, more in winter and going into colder months. My experience is they will shine mpg wise when you need to stop briefly(not sit in traffic) and slow down a lot, but can keep moving. The least amount of idle time, the better.

 

[fdcg27]

Don't discount that suburbs aren't ideal for hybrids, because they are. Now if someone is doing a lot of highway driving, that is where it isn't worth it and also doing a lot of 3-4 mile short runs, more in winter and going into colder months. My experience is they will shine mpg wise when you need to stop briefly(not sit in traffic) and slow down a lot, but can keep moving. The least amount of idle time, the better.

Spot on! The HAH is at its best in lower speed local running, where you can usually use regen to avoid the brake pedal and hard acceleration is neither needed nor possible. My commute to work involves a long two-lane stretch with speeds under sixty or so, so the car does well there too.
On a straight highway run, you can expect 47-48 mpg with the cruise set in the young seventies.
Colder weather brings higher fuel consumption under all conditions.

 

[JHZR2]

Don't discount that suburbs aren't ideal for hybrids, because they are. Now if someone is doing a lot of highway driving, that is where it isn't worth it and also doing a lot of 3-4 mile short runs, more in winter and going into colder months. My experience is they will shine mpg wise when you need to stop briefly(not sit in traffic) and slow down a lot, but can keep moving. The least amount of idle time, the better.

Suburbs are great for hybrids. Stop signs, stop lights, etc are perfect for electric.

I’ll get 60 mpg all day in my 47 mpg city accord hybrid, as long as the heat isn’t run.

I agree highway isn’t as compelling. Running the heat is a major reducer.

The 3-4 mile trip is no issue at all, unless heat is run.

 

[raaizin]

Let's say you are considering a new vehicle and the base engine option is a 2.4L, 4-cyl turbocharged direct-injection engine that performs adequately but is somewhat noisy and unrefined.

Due to current market conditions and differences in trim level packages, you have the option of getting a 2.5L, 4-cyl Hybrid Powertrain, but for an additional $3500. During the test drive, you find the hybrid powertrain to be significantly quieter and smoother under normal driving conditions.

Both engine options deliver nearly-identical 0-60, 1/4 mile and passing performance. Both engine options also require premium fuel.

The hybrid delivers 10 mpg better than the non-hybrid option, but as a low mileage driver, the fuel savings are non-existent should a battery replacement be required within 15 years of ownership.

Therefore, opting for the hybrid in this situation is strictly for the upgraded driving experience. Does it makes sense to do it?

My daughter purchased a 2024 Honda CRV Sport Touring which is their top of the line model. It is significantly more premium than the CRV with the 1.5 turbo and CVT

 

[meep]

My wife is out of town so I’ve driven RAV4H exclusively all weekend, also allowing me to work on the truck. I live outside of the city so everything is half an hour from me, some interstate, some 45 mph and then in town. I averaged 38.4 for the weekend. I won’t lie - that gas mileage is attractive.

I think the atkins cycle tuning is the other advantage in play here. We talk about the reclamation during braking but most of what I was doing was steady speed driving. The frontal area of the RAV is not tiny - it’s a box - yet somehow gets those numbers on regular gas at highway speeds.

Back to work tomorrow, I’ll leave it in the garage because it’s her car and I don’t want to get it dirty or door dinged at work - but I’ve enjoyed the seat time in the energetic little runabout.

 

[PandaBear]

It make sense to me. A lot of people buy V6 because it is quieter and not because it is faster. At $4.70-5.40/gal for premium, it doesn't take too many miles to save the 3500 initial purchase cost.

Saving 2-3 sets of pads would likely save you $500 already as well. Also the 12V battery last longer and that's likely another $200-300 there as well.

 

[PandaBear]

Not sure if I agree with that one until I do some data-logging to validate. Even in an Atkinson Cycle engine, there is potentially room within the calibration to take advantage of the higher octane. The knock retard can be monitored and graphed with scan tools to validate your argument.

If we end up with the hybrid, I'll put this on my long-term to-do list.

Maybe, maybe not. It is going to based on the work done by the OEM and whether they tune both regular fuel and high octane fuel and aim for the best mpg out of both, or just do enough work and sell it. You won't know until you have both data over a long time. This is in all types of engine / transmission / cycles. The cost of R&D may never generate a ROI and manufacturers don't like to do work without profit.

 

[PandaBear]

We will agree to disagree until I see the data to validate your position. Knock sensors do work, but they are not perfect - so I would be hesitant to be fully reliant on them.

But I appreciate and agree with the rest of your information, especially with regard to the changes in hybrid battery location.

Depends on the control. Some engine may retard way too much when below required octane is causing ping, while others are dynamically adjust the timing / AFR just enough. You can't assume "in theory" alone.

 

[PandaBear]

My wife is out of town so I’ve driven RAV4H exclusively all weekend, also allowing me to work on the truck. I live outside of the city so everything is half an hour from me, some interstate, some 45 mph and then in town. I averaged 38.4 for the weekend. I won’t lie - that gas mileage is attractive.

I think the atkins cycle tuning is the other advantage in play here. We talk about the reclamation during braking but most of what I was doing was steady speed driving. The frontal area of the RAV is not tiny - it’s a box - yet somehow gets those numbers on regular gas at highway speeds.

Back to work tomorrow, I’ll leave it in the garage because it’s her car and I don’t want to get it dirty or door dinged at work - but I’ve enjoyed the seat time in the energetic little runabout.

A typical mid size sedan only need 30hp to cruise the highway. Hybrid reduce the burden to put in a big engine just for acceleration, and how they downsize the engine is just the implementation detail.

Going from a 200hp engine to a 100hp engine + 100hp electric motor will definitely give you A LOT of fuel saving, regardless of doing stop and go or highway driving.

 

[M1Accord]

What is a hybrid total replacement cost now for a Prius V or Highlander or Sienna? If it is over $4k for a new battery and installation then that is a premium upgrade as that cost would be occurring every 10 years on average and there is no guarantee that cost would be lower in the future given how cars and car-related parts and services had gone up significantly.

 

[M1Accord]

A typical mid size sedan only need 30hp to cruise the highway. Hybrid reduce the burden to put in a big engine just for acceleration, and how they downsize the engine is just the implementation detail.

Going from a 200hp engine to a 100hp engine + 100hp electric motor will definitely give you A LOT of fuel saving, regardless of doing stop and go or highway driving.

It would be nice if there is an option to stay in hybrid for up to 50 mph or rpm under 2500. That would greatly help in hilly terrain driving where experienced drivers can maintain lower rpm even during ascend and the engine is smart enough to recharge battery during descend by using smart engine braking to maintain speed and save brakes,

 

[The Critic]

What is a hybrid total replacement cost now for a Prius V or Highlander or Sienna? If it is over $4k for a new battery and installation then that is a premium upgrade as that cost would be occurring every 10 years on average and there is no guarantee that cost would be lower in the future given how cars and car-related parts and services had gone up significantly.

It varies by model, but Sienna/RX350h are now over $7k Msrp for the part alone.

2024 Lexus RX 350h BASE (VIN starts with 2) Battery assembly, hv supply. Batteries - G951048152 | Lexus, Mobile AL

Battery assembly, hv supply. Batteries, electrical. 2024 Lexus RX 350h BASE (VIN starts with 2). Genuine Lexus Part - G951048152 (G9510-48152). Ships from Lexus, Mobile AL

parts.lexusofmobile.com

You usually get a lot more than 10 years out of them though.

And before someone says that prices will come down, people said that in the 2000’s and the cost of Prius battery packs never came down.

It would be nice if there is an option to stay in hybrid for up to 50 mph or rpm under 2500. That would greatly help in hilly terrain driving where experienced drivers can maintain lower rpm even during ascend and the engine is smart enough to recharge battery during descend by using smart engine braking to maintain speed and save brakes,

That would put the battery thru too much cycling and they will not last.

 

[PandaBear]

It would be nice if there is an option to stay in hybrid for up to 50 mph or rpm under 2500. That would greatly help in hilly terrain driving where experienced drivers can maintain lower rpm even during ascend and the engine is smart enough to recharge battery during descend by using smart engine braking to maintain speed and save brakes,

In order to do that the car needs to have a bigger battery. Typically in my Prius V, after about 1000 ft decend, the battery would be fully charged and you need either engine braking or disk brake. Obviously you would therefore not have enough charge to climb back up the same height with battery monstly / only.

For plug in hybrid their battery size would be much bigger, and even a small 32 miles range battery would likely have enough capacity to store one bottom to top hill climb.

 

[PandaBear]

What is a hybrid total replacement cost now for a Prius V or Highlander or Sienna? If it is over $4k for a new battery and installation then that is a premium upgrade as that cost would be occurring every 10 years on average and there is no guarantee that cost would be lower in the future given how cars and car-related parts and services had gone up significantly.

I think Prius V use the same battery as the regular Prius, which is likely about 4-5k with all new cells from Toyota (need to return the core).

Most I know last about 13-15 years and about 200k miles whichever comes first.