HPL PCMO 5w-20 10.3k mi; 2014 Subaru Outback 153.8k mi

[thetricky]

My quest to find how long I can run this oil continues. Looks decent save for the Silicon that keeps climbing.

Last UOA at 6k miles I took the intake apart and checked everything from filter to throttle body, all good. After seeing this latest silicon number I ordered a K&N disposable filter (didn't know they made these!) as the price was right. I took the cover off of the airbox where the filter should seal with the felt strip and moved it around to see if it could potentially create a gap. Sure enough, in 4 directions if it moves far enough it created a decent gap. I did that with the new K&N and could not get a gap in any direction I moved it. Side-by-side the Purolator filter has a noticeably narrower felt seal and it is quit hard, not much give to seal correctly. Think I found my silicon issue here, though time will tell! Needless to say, no more Purolator air filters in this house!!

All that being said, opinions on what I should do next? Change to get that silicon out and keep monitoring? Keep running it? Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks!

 

[Rand]

now the silicon will just go through the filter
A port injected FB25 is definitely a better candidate
than the GDI or TGDI engines.
for long(er) drains.

 

[ltslimjim]

Everything looks fine to me overall. The oxidation hasn’t climbed too highly(need to confirm Virgin), yet, and there is plenty of TBN remaining. Do we have a VOA for the baseline of this lube wrt both Si and Oxidation?

While the concern over a potential particle streak happening or not is valid; I don’t know if simply draining the oil will wash it all away. What oil filter do you have in place currently? If it’s highly efficient it should catch the particles sooner than later.

If you have the money and want peace of mind, draining sooner on to a fresh interval isn’t the worst idea.

For best value/efficiency, this could easily be ran out 2-3k more and a final sample for ending TBN and Oxidation numbers would yield good data for future limits of this oil in current engine and current conditions driven. If it weren’t for the concern, you could easily try stretching this interval out to 15k and just confirming oxidation hasn’t climbed past the breaking point, TBN is still good, viscosity is acceptable and contaminants haven’t condemned the oil, etc.

 

[thetricky]

Everything looks fine to me overall. The oxidation hasn’t climbed too highly(need to confirm Virgin), yet, and there is plenty of TBN remaining. Do we have a VOA for the baseline of this lube wrt both Si and Oxidation?

While the concern over a potential particle streak happening or not is valid; I don’t know if simply draining the oil will wash it all away. What oil filter do you have in place currently? If it’s highly efficient it should catch the particles sooner than later.

If you have the money and want peace of mind, draining sooner on to a fresh interval isn’t the worst idea.

For best value/efficiency, this could easily be ran out 2-3k more and a final sample for ending TBN and Oxidation numbers would yield good data for future limits of this oil in current engine and current conditions driven. If it weren’t for the concern, you could easily try stretching this interval out to 15k and just confirming oxidation hasn’t climbed past the breaking point, TBN is still good, viscosity is acceptable and contaminants haven’t condemned the oil, etc.

This is my thinking too. 15k seems doable. I'm using a Microguard Select which replaced a Fram Endurance at about 8k miles.

 

[MVAR]

My Canyon had high silicon and the iron went through the roof for two UOA's back to back. I ended up dumping the HPL that was in it & picked up some Delo on rebate/sale. Flushed with a cheap SN+ oil I had around the garage, went through the air intake system like you & couldn't find anything. Swapped the no-name air filter for a Napa Gold that had a much better seal (looks wise) than the AC Delco or off brand (Amazon) filter. Have another 1k mi before taking another UOA on that one to see how the silicon is doing.

Your iron isn't nearly as high as I was seeing so I wouldn't be too concerned in your case.

 

[ltslimjim]

This is my thinking too. 15k seems doable. I'm using a Microguard Select which replaced a Fram Endurance at about 8k miles.

Excellent. The oil is beginning to thicken. But HPL has it formulated to resist this causing deposits or allowing for increased wear. I believe going up 1 grade isn’t enough to condemn the oil alone during extended intervals. Perhaps others can chime in.

 

[ltslimjim]

Found a relevant quote from another UOA:

“The condemnation limit of both viscosity and oxidation have been surpassed. @High Performance Lubricants suggests no more viscosity increase than 3 cSt, which is exactly where the viscosity is now. Wearcheck suggests an an oxidation limit of anything > 25, this oil is now at 27.1 (normalized).“

So, confirming starting VOA for viscosity and the oxidation value; would help establish the limits for not climbing higher than 25 over baseline. I believe PCEO starts around 30?

Thread 'Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL CK-4 5w-20 - 33,300 miles on oil - 173,000 miles total'

Jan 4, 2024

This sample was pulled from my 2014 Dodge Durango with a total of 173,000 miles and 33,300 miles on the oil. I estimate the run time is 835 hours(33,300 miles/40 MPH). The oil is HPL's 5w-20 CK-4 based formula and has been run since Feb 9, 2022, about 23 months. The lab is Wearcheck. The usage on this 5,300 miles run was >75% high speed driving down the interstate. There was 3/4 quart of makeup oil. The PCV valve was changed and oil consumption returned to zero and the oil cooler was changed. Approximately 50% of the fuel used for this 5,300 mile was E-85. Fe wear rate for this 5,300 miles...

• wwillson
• Replies: 41
• Forum: Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline

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• 
• 

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Excellent. The oil is beginning to thicken. But HPL has it formulated to resist this causing deposits or allowing for increased wear. I believe going up 1 grade isn’t enough to condemn the oil alone during extended intervals. Perhaps others can chime in.

I wouldn’t be worried in the least with a ~10cSt oil in my FB. If taking @Cujet ‘s long experience on timing chains as valid on its face, OP is actually doing their engine a favor by letting it thicken up a hair to a 30 grade

In all seriousness, there’s no concerns with HPL thickening slightly; @High Performance Lubricants has told us this is intentional and planned for and is therefore not concerning. IIRC @wwillson uses total oxidation increase of 25 as his yardstick to change; OP, you could likely contact HPL with your batch number and ask them for the virgin oxidation value so you know.

Just to hazard a wild guess based on past HPL reviews you’re still well under a 25-point increase on your oxidation.

 

[buster]

Found a relevant quote:

“The condemnation limit of both viscosity and oxidation have been surpassed. @High Performance Lubricants suggests no more viscosity increase than 3 cSt, which is exactly where the viscosity is now. Wearcheck suggests an an oxidation limit of anything > 25, this oil is now at 27.1 (normalized).“

So, confirming starting VOA for viscosity and the oxidation value; would help establish the limits for not climbing higher than 25 over baseline. I believe PCEO starts around 30?

Thread 'Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL CK-4 5w-20 - 33,300 miles on oil - 173,000 miles total'

Jan 4, 2024

This sample was pulled from my 2014 Dodge Durango with a total of 173,000 miles and 33,300 miles on the oil. I estimate the run time is 835 hours(33,300 miles/40 MPH). The oil is HPL's 5w-20 CK-4 based formula and has been run since Feb 9, 2022, about 23 months. The lab is Wearcheck. The usage on this 5,300 miles run was >75% high speed driving down the interstate. There was 3/4 quart of makeup oil. The PCV valve was changed and oil consumption returned to zero and the oil cooler was changed. Approximately 50% of the fuel used for this 5,300 mile was E-85. Fe wear rate for this 5,300 miles...

• wwillson
• Replies: 41
• Forum: Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline

• 
• 
• 

Most of the VOA I've seen of HPL oxidation is around 23-25. So at 38, you're about 18-21 over baseline. You could probably extend to 15k.

 

[fantastic]

Si is something to watch. If feel it's getting close to limits then you could always get another fill of this HPL & run it out longer the next time before sampling to make up the difference. Cu seems to be tracking with miles.

 

[thetricky]

I wouldn’t be worried in the least with a ~10cSt oil in my FB. If taking @Cujet ‘s long experience on timing chains as valid on its face, OP is actually doing their engine a favor by letting it thicken up a hair to a 30 grade

In all seriousness, there’s no concerns with HPL thickening slightly; @High Performance Lubricants has told us this is intentional and planned for and is therefore not concerning. IIRC @wwillson uses total oxidation increase of 25 as his yardstick to change; OP, you could likely contact HPL with your batch number and ask them for the virgin oxidation value so you know.

Just to hazard a wild guess based on past HPL reviews you’re still well under a 25-point increase on your oxidation.

Haha! I do actually have 5w-30 HPL for the next fill! Thanks for the input subieroo.

Most of the VOA I've seen of HPL oxidation is around 23-25. So at 38, you're about 18-21 over baseline. You could probably extend to 15k.

So 25 points over baseline is the condemnation point? Going to push for 15k most likely. Good info, thanks!

 

[buster]

Haha! I do actually have 5w-30 HPL for the next fill! Thanks for the input subieroo.

So 25 points over baseline is the condemnation point? Going to push for 15k most likely. Good info, thanks!

That's the general consensus. Whether it's an actual cutoff point I don't know. You don't want oxidation though. Oxidation is arguably the worst thing you can have in an oil.

 

[ltslimjim]

That's the general consensus. Whether it's an actual cutoff point I don't know. You don't want oxidation though. Oxidation is arguably the worst thing you can have in an oil.

Which basically means a more acidic overall oil, even if there is base number still active? Is that correct? So, going beyond deposits to risking actual metal corrosion?

 

[buster]

Which basically means a more acidic overall oil, even if there is base number still active? Is that correct? So, going beyond deposits to risking actual metal corrosion?

There is a lot of confusion and disagreement on the TBN/TAN cross over. LE seems to think it's not a good indicator due to corrosion inhibitors. The UOA has to be looked at in its entirely, not just specific parts (TBN/TAN etc.). So if there are no spikes in Cu or other metals, even with a higher TAN, the corrosion inhibitors are keeping corrosion at bay and the oil is fine.

I would say if TAN is going up, but so is viscosity AND oxidation, that's not good. If it's just one of the variables, it's likely ok. My .02.

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/e...ment/used-engine-oil-analysis-tbn-vs-tan.html

Conclusion
"The lower TBN values we are seeing in the field today are not a reflection of overall health of the oil. Rather they are a result in the change in engine oil formulating strategy, combined with longer drain intervals being set by OEMs – without TBN as a sole condemning criterion.

Much like the battery of blood tests you get when visiting the doctor, no one parameter alone can provide a complete picture of health. Likewise, a more comprehensive mix of indicators is needed to determine oil health and performance, including TAN, wear metals, oxidation and viscosity."

 

[Bill7]

My quest to find how long I can run this oil continues. Looks decent save for the Silicon that keeps climbing.

Last UOA at 6k miles I took the intake apart and checked everything from filter to throttle body, all good. After seeing this latest silicon number I ordered a K&N disposable filter (didn't know they made these!) as the price was right. I took the cover off of the airbox where the filter should seal with the felt strip and moved it around to see if it could potentially create a gap. Sure enough, in 4 directions if it moves far enough it created a decent gap. I did that with the new K&N and could not get a gap in any direction I moved it. Side-by-side the Purolator filter has a noticeably narrower felt seal and it is quit hard, not much give to seal correctly. Think I found my silicon issue here, though time will tell! Needless to say, no more Purolator air filters in this house!!

All that being said, opinions on what I should do next? Change to get that silicon out and keep monitoring? Keep running it? Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks!



View attachment 278148

View attachment 278147

It would be interesting if you could do a UOA at 5k miles, to see what that shows.

 

[thetricky]

It would be interesting if you could do a UOA at 5k miles, to see what that shows.

#2 on the sheet above is the same fill at 5950 miles. #1 was Amsoil SS on a different fill.