How to calculate Total Wear Metals & LSJ oil analysis methodology

[2.7ecoboostFordBronco]

I was wondering what BobIsTheOilGuy members thought about this UOA methodology from Lake Speed Jr's live stream yesterday. Does this seem like a sound method? I think it does.

Does anyone know how to calculate a total wear metals per 1000 miles statistic from a blackstone UOA? Do you just add up all the metals I've put a red square on here and divide by the mileage/1000? So for instance here I got 23 ppm of all the red boxed metals, and 23/2.578 = 8.9 twm per 1k mi. I understand that a shorter OCI will skew the TWM number high as stated in the livestream, so I will go for a 5k OCI next time.

I wasn't sure about the the moly since the VOA for this oil had 70 ppm, so it seems like it shouldn't be counted as a wear metal.

I took a bit of flack on posting this first UOA since I was concerned about the oil viscosity even though the wear metals seemed fine.

.

I also found the filter discussion in the video pretty interesting, I didn't realize I was sacrificing efficiency for capacity by going with the long endurance filters, like the Fram Synthetic Endurance I'm using. If I'm going to a 5000 OCI maybe it is not the best choice?

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[wpod]

New engines produce lots of wear metals etc during break in? All that matters with an oil filter is that it doesn't fail.

 

[cptbarkey]

He is selling his oil analysis services so by default I do not subscribe to his "methodology."

Change break in oil at 3k miles, UOAs are a waste of $$ until 40k imo.

 

[dnewton3]

It's clear to me that LSJr, while perhaps an accredited tribologist and formulator, knows diddly-squat about how to use proper statistical analysis methodology. He demonstrates the typical misinterpretations most make; confusing macro and micro data stream analysis.


Read this when you get a chance:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

 

[TiGeo]

I just use Fe, Al, Cu, and Si and do them individually for the /1000mi values. At your mileage, you are just starting to collect data to develop some trends, the metals should be elevated at this point so it's not something to concern yourself with yet - yours are actually quite low for such a new vehicle. I see some of your other posts question the oil to use - I'm quite sure that M1 oil is just fine to use and if it drops out of viscosity, that too for many turbo charged direct injected engines is quite normal and not hurting a thing for normal use/driving. There are oils more resistant to the mechanical shearing but keep in mind any viscosity drop due to fuel dilution is a separate matter and will happen regardless of oil type. You can see an example of my UOA tracking here using wear metal rates/1000 miles:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...kup-after-3x-track-days-hpl-euro-5w40.385225/

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

View attachment 233778
I was wondering what BobIsTheOilGuy members thought about this UOA methodology from Lake Speed Jr's live stream yesterday. Does this seem like a sound method? I think it does.

Does anyone know how to calculate a total wear metals per 1000 miles statistic from a blackstone UOA? Do you just add up all the metals I've put a red square on here and divide by the mileage/1000? So for instance here I got 23 ppm of all the red boxed metals, and 23/2.578 = 8.9 twm per 1k mi. I understand that a shorter OCI will skew the TWM number high as stated in the livestream, so I will go for a 5k OCI next time.

I wasn't sure about the the moly since the VOA for this oil had 70 ppm, so it seems like it shouldn't be counted as a wear metal.

I took a bit of flack on posting this first UOA since I was concerned about the oil viscosity even though the wear metals seemed fine.
View attachment 233779.

I also found the filter discussion in the video pretty interesting, I didn't realize I was sacrificing efficiency for capacity by going with the long endurance filters, like the Fram Synthetic Endurance I'm using. If I'm going to a 5000 OCI maybe it is not the best choice?

I'll hang up and listen.

Don't forget in the video he said that you should only look at ppm/thousand miles when doing samples between 4k-6k miles. He said when under 4k miles the wear numbers are skewed to look worse (probably because of left over from the previous fill) and the wear numbers are skewed to look better on samples over 6k miles but he didn't explain why that was so and to me that doesn't make sense.

Note: A problem with a UOA on factory fill is that if allows owners to incorrectly assume that the break in material seen on a UOA is causing the engine to wear out sooner if you don't change the oil. That's not the case at all.

 

[DuckRyder]

I didn't realize I was sacrificing efficiency for capacity by going with the long endurance filters, like the Fram Synthetic Endurance I'm using.

I admit i don't know exactly what he said because i cannot stand to watch him, he right up there with Kilmer for me.

But that isn't true at least not to any great extent for the FRAM - FRAM gives you the Efficiency @ micron for the filter. Wix if they haven't changer it XP is worse than regular Wix and the Purolator Boss is also rated at a slightly higher Micron than regular, but it is still not bad.

Id just drive the truck if i was you.

 

[TiGeo]

Don't forget in the video he said that you should only look at ppm/thousand miles when doing samples between 4k-6k miles. He said when under 4k miles the wear numbers are skewed to look worse (probably because of left over from the previous fill) and the wear numbers are skewed to look better on samples over 6k miles but he didn't explain why that was so and to me that doesn't make sense.

Note: A problem with a UOA on factory fill is that if allows owners to incorrectly assume that the break in material seen on a UOA is causing the engine to wear out sooner if you don't change the oil. That's not the case at all.

Agreed - not sure on why the issue with the mileage here, my understanding is that the wear metals increase in concentration with mileage...maybe they are front-loaded and not a linear increase? Should be able to determine that with as many UOAs are here or even Blackstone likely has that information/could provide data.

Also agree with your last point - folks see those high wear metals in the first few UOAs and freak out.

 

[TiGeo]

I admit i don't know exactly what he said because i cannot stand to watch him, he right up there with Kilmer for me.

But that isn't true at least not to any great extent for the FRAM - FRAM gives you the Efficiency @ micron for the filter. Wix if they haven't changer it XP is worse than regular Wix and the Purolator Boss is also rated at a slightly higher Micron than regular, but it is still not bad.

Id just drive the truck if i was you.

Wow, LSJR and Kilmer being equivalents? I'd say they are quite different w/r to their content and how they present it but maybe it's the voice/mannerisms that bug you?

 

[TiGeo]

Also how isn't this video posted in one of the main sub-forums....it's got it all!

 

[2.7ecoboostFordBronco]

Don't forget in the video he said that you should only look at ppm/thousand miles when doing samples between 4k-6k miles. He said when under 4k miles the wear numbers are skewed to look worse (probably because of left over from the previous fill) and the wear numbers are skewed to look better on samples over 6k miles but he didn't explain why that was so and to me that doesn't make sense.

Note: A problem with a UOA on factory fill is that if allows owners to incorrectly assume that the break in material seen on a UOA is causing the engine to wear out sooner if you don't change the oil. That's not the case at all.

Yeah, I thought I acknowledged that in the last sentence of the second paragraph in the first post. I also know that wear metals will be higher for the first ~15k miles, just trying to calculate the total wear for the future. I do tend to write walls of text so I apologize for that.

Also how isn't this video posted in one of the main sub-forums....it's got it all!

You should start a thread on it, I considered talking about this in a more visible spot but figured I’d get nuked as a newb. I’m learning the less I post on here the better for my sanity. I will probably just post voa/uoa without writing too much from here on out.

 

[kschachn]

You should start a thread on it, I considered talking about this in a more visible spot but figured I’d get nuked as a newb. I’m learning the less I post on here the better for my sanity. I will probably just post voa/uoa without writing too much from here on out.

Just post factual information and there’s nothing to worry about.

 

[TiGeo]

I considered talking about this in a more visible spot but figured I’d get nuked as a newb. I’m learning the less I post on here the better for my sanity. I will probably just post voa/uoa without writing too much from here on out.

Go for it, for the betterment of all!

 

[TiGeo]

Just post factual information and there’s nothing to worry about.

And with that, the General/off topic sub-forum is gone.

 

[DuckRyder]

Wow, LSJR and Kilmer being equivalents? I'd say they are quite different w/r to their content and how they present it but maybe it's the voice/mannerisms that bug you?

I cant make it long enough to make any judgement about the content with either of them, i'd rather listen to 10 hours of fingers on a chalkboard...

But i digress...

What's the total mileage on this truck? Did i miss that?

And yes, you can divide the wear metals by thousands of miles to get wear metals per 1000 miles so 5 ppm in 5000 miles would be 1 ppm in 1000 miles average.

 

[kschachn]

His biggest problem (in my opinion) is that he’s automatically correlating the observation to oil brand which is unwarranted. There are many uncontrolled variables that contribute to the UOA results and he’s somehow thinking all of them are accounted for - which they are not.

If my understanding is correct that this is his conclusion (as read above) then he’s making a fundamental error that calls into question any other conclusions he may draw.

 

[RDY4WAR]

He is selling his oil analysis services so by default I do not subscribe to his "methodology."

Change break in oil at 3k miles, UOAs are a waste of $$ until 40k imo.

He and I discussed this same methodology nearly 10 years ago, well before he started Speediagnostix and was still with Driven. Yes, he's selling his UOA services, but that doesn't suddenly make the methodology void.

As for the 40k miles, there's cases right now in 3rd Gen Ecodiesels seeing severe bearing wear at 10-20k miles, on OEM recommended oil (also with dealerships and owners putting in the wrong oil), that drops dramatically when moving to a better oil. There's been quite a few with trashed bearings at <40k miles. That engine shreds oil. It took a No VII 10W-40 to bring the bearing wear down and not shear out of grade.

 

[kschachn]

As for the 40k miles, there's cases right now in 3rd Gen Ecodiesels seeing severe bearing wear at 10-20k miles, on OEM recommended oil (also with dealerships and owners putting in the wrong oil), that drops dramatically when moving to a better oil. There's been quite a few with trashed bearings at <40k miles. That engine shreds oil. It took a No VII 10W-40 to bring the bearing wear down and not shear out of grade.

What is wrong with the engine that causes this?

 

[cptbarkey]

He and I discussed this same methodology nearly 10 years ago, well before he started Speediagnostix and was still with Driven. Yes, he's selling his UOA services, but that doesn't suddenly make the methodology void.

As for the 40k miles, there's cases right now in 3rd Gen Ecodiesels seeing severe bearing wear at 10-20k miles, on OEM recommended oil (also with dealerships and owners putting in the wrong oil), that drops dramatically when moving to a better oil. There's been quite a few with trashed bearings at <40k miles. That engine shreds oil. It took a No VII 10W-40 to bring the bearing wear down and not shear out of grade.

His methodology wont work with cursed Ecodiesels. Its also obtusely expensive. Good for you on the personal connection.

 

[TiGeo]

His methodology wont work with cursed Ecodiesels. Its also obtusely expensive. Good for you on the personal connection.

I wonder if LSJR peruses the BITOG to see what folks are saying about this videos.