How Often Do Filter Go Into Bypass Mode?

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I would then gather that a small filter defect that permits some slight bypass, like the small media tears we are seeing in Purolator filters, would have the same neligibile effect upon wear and engine longevity.
As long as it stays small, & doesn't turn into an Ecore-like media launch (which the metal center tube should prevent), I agree. As dnewton likes to say, as long as you OCI regularly with a decent oil, the filter doesn't have a very tough job. I know my fleet will rust the bodies off long before any filter kills an engine.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
We gotta train another newbie ...

J/K

You're never too old to learn.

There are lessons in here for everyone!!!

 

[JiL]

My investigating this issue and finding this thread is due to recent experience with a high mileage engine which suffered a PCV system clog and which either resulted in additional deposition of carbonaceous deposits or was due to their initial excess.

After a thorough cleaning of the valve cover baffle and the clogged PCV system, several short OCIs were performed in the hopes of removing some of the remaining deposits. On opening the filter after the most recent oil change, a substantial amount of hard, black, gritty deposits were found. Most were entrained within the pleats of the filter media but many were still free roaming within the filter can.

Given the prevalence of deposits not entrapped, and with the bypass on the lower end of the filter, it seems that if the bypass opened that damaging sand-like particles could easily be re-introduced to the oil stream.

 

[goodtimes]

[/quote]
My concerns are less about sump oil being filtered or not and more about the contaminants and debris that has been sequestered on the dirty side of the filtereing element being released en masse during a bypass event.[/quote]
I think your concerns are justified, to take the contrarian view here, and in spite of the good points made. I say the old bypass filters were the first type for cars, and the idea is still the best.

 

[rrounds]

In your case JiL,
I would use the largest oil filter that you can fit on your vehicle. That would make getting to the bypass setting of the filter much harder to reach. Or if you can't fit a larger oil filter on your car I would try to find a filter with a higher bypass setting than stock and change it out often to see when the deposits get back to normal. Then go back to what you normally use.

ROD

 

[JiL]

Originally Posted By: rrounds
I would use the largest oil filter that you can fit on your vehicle. That would make getting to the bypass setting of the filter much harder to reach.

Along with close monitoring, that's the plan!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: JiL

After a thorough cleaning of the valve cover baffle and the clogged PCV system, several short OCIs were performed in the hopes of removing some of the remaining deposits. On opening the filter after the most recent oil change, a substantial amount of hard, black, gritty deposits were found. Most were entrained within the pleats of the filter media but many were still free roaming within the filter can.

Given the prevalence of deposits not entrapped, and with the bypass on the lower end of the filter, it seems that if the bypass opened that damaging sand-like particles could easily be re-introduced to the oil stream.


Depends on the orientation of the oil filter on the engine. How is it orientated?

 

[JiL]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: JiL

After a thorough cleaning of the valve cover baffle and the clogged PCV system, several short OCIs were performed in the hopes of removing some of the remaining deposits. On opening the filter after the most recent oil change, a substantial amount of hard, black, gritty deposits were found. Most were entrained within the pleats of the filter media but many were still free roaming within the filter can.

Given the prevalence of deposits not entrapped, and with the bypass on the lower end of the filter, it seems that if the bypass opened that damaging sand-like particles could easily be re-introduced to the oil stream.


Depends on the orientation of the oil filter on the engine. How is it orientated?

As installed, the bypass is on the end of the filter that is lower.

 

[dnewton3]

Theory:
yada yada yada, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, blah blah blah ....
Unsubstantiated guesses, hypothetical rhetoric ...

Reality:
No data exists to show that there is a statitsically significant disparity of wear rates between frequent and infrequent BP events in normal operation. To the contrary, data exists to show that wear rates are not effected by BP events, when comparing and contrasting vehicles which would be prone to events (thick lubes used in very bold climes) to vehicles with low propensity (thin lubes in warm climes).



Say - you guys worried about the next comet to strike earth????? If you're going to debate things you have no control over, or have any proof of, why not that topic?

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Theory:
yada yada yada, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, blah blah blah ....
Unsubstantiated guesses, hypothetical rhetoric ...

Reality:
No data exists to show that there is a statitsically significant disparity of wear rates between frequent and infrequent BP events in normal operation. To the contrary, data exists to show that wear rates are not effected by BP events, when comparing and contrasting vehicles which would be prone to events (thick lubes used in very bold climes) to vehicles with low propensity (thin lubes in warm climes).



Say - you guys worried about the next comet to strike earth????? If you're going to debate things you have no control over, or have any proof of, why not that topic?

Very good point. And since very few people except the OEMs and oil manufacturers can do an engine tear down to actually measure wear rate that information is not going to be available.

What is laughable is when people use UOA as wear rate!

LOL.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Theory:
yada yada yada, blah blah blah, yada yada yada, blah blah blah ....
Unsubstantiated guesses, hypothetical rhetoric ...

Reality:
No data exists to show that there is a statitsically significant disparity of wear rates between frequent and infrequent BP events in normal operation. To the contrary, data exists to show that wear rates are not effected by BP events, when comparing and contrasting vehicles which would be prone to events (thick lubes used in very bold climes) to vehicles with low propensity (thin lubes in warm climes).



Say - you guys worried about the next comet to strike earth????? If you're going to debate things you have no control over, or have any proof of, why not that topic?

Very good point. And since very few people except the OEMs and oil manufacturers can do an engine tear down to actually measure wear rate that information is not going to be available.

What is laughable is when people use UOA as wear rate!

LOL.



I was once one of "those" guys. Thankfully Overkill got me started on the right track as far as using a used oil analysis as a tool,then he suggested going back a few years worth of Doug Hillary's posts if I really wanted to learn something.
So I did. I'm an insomniac so I spent many a sleepless night reading his old posts. That man has forgotten more in regards to the industry(oil,eurosleds,heavy trucks) than most of us will ever know.
And that's why I suggest to members to check out his posts when they aren't using a used oil analysis as it is supposed to be used.
We all start somewhere.

 

[mr_diy]

Maybe the reason Toyota and Honda opt for better flow than micron filtration is to limit or eliminate regular bypass and thus prevent flushing the particles that accumulate in the filter. The only upgraded filter would then be synthetic media to maintain OEM flow.

If winter is when bypasses are common then a test might be to compare filters changed in the winter with changes in the summer to see if there is a noticeable different in canister accumulated particles.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Maybe the reason Toyota and Honda opt for better flow than micron filtration is to limit or eliminate regular bypass and thus prevent flushing the particles that accumulate in the filter. The only upgraded filter would then be synthetic media to maintain OEM flow.

If winter is when bypasses are common then a test might be to compare filters changed in the winter with changes in the summer to see if there is a noticeable different in canister accumulated particles.


I'm not sure what filter efficiency has to do with filter capacity and bypass events. You would need more spec info about the media to draw any conclusions. I would rather have the crud in the filter than worry about particles that might wash out of the filter media.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Maybe the reason Toyota and Honda opt for better flow than micron filtration is to limit or eliminate regular bypass and thus prevent flushing the particles that accumulate in the filter. The only upgraded filter would then be synthetic media to maintain OEM flow.

If winter is when bypasses are common then a test might be to compare filters changed in the winter with changes in the summer to see if there is a noticeable different in canister accumulated particles.


I'm not sure what filter efficiency has to do with filter capacity and bypass events. You would need more spec info about the media to draw any conclusions. I would rather have the crud in the filter than worry about particles that might wash out of the filter media.


I believe mr_diy is saying that with a serious oil contamination event, the media would be quicker to plug and go into full bypass with a higher efficiency filter.

I would think two comparable cellulose filters with varying efficiencies would behave in that fashion.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Maybe the reason Toyota and Honda opt for better flow than micron filtration is to limit or eliminate regular bypass and thus prevent flushing the particles that accumulate in the filter. The only upgraded filter would then be synthetic media to maintain OEM flow.

If winter is when bypasses are common then a test might be to compare filters changed in the winter with changes in the summer to see if there is a noticeable different in canister accumulated particles.


I'm not sure what filter efficiency has to do with filter capacity and bypass events. You would need more spec info about the media to draw any conclusions. I would rather have the crud in the filter than worry about particles that might wash out of the filter media.


I believe mr_diy is saying that with a serious oil contamination event, the media would be quicker to plug and go into full bypass with a higher efficiency filter.

I would think two comparable cellulose filters with varying efficiencies would behave in that fashion.



True but we don't know if the media has similar or very different capacity. If you look at the low grade filters of most manufacturers they have lower efficiency but also less capacity. The higher end filters have both higher capacity and better efficiency due to better media.

 

[mr_diy]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Maybe the reason Toyota and Honda opt for better flow than micron filtration is to limit or eliminate regular bypass and thus prevent flushing the particles that accumulate in the filter. The only upgraded filter would then be synthetic media to maintain OEM flow.

If winter is when bypasses are common then a test might be to compare filters changed in the winter with changes in the summer to see if there is a noticeable different in canister accumulated particles.


I'm not sure what filter efficiency has to do with filter capacity and bypass events. You would need more spec info about the media to draw any conclusions. I would rather have the crud in the filter than worry about particles that might wash out of the filter media.


I was thinking of the particles that collect in the canister that you find in the bottom when cut open, not what is imbedded in the media. These loose particles would seem likely to flush out.
Regarding efficiency vs flow, I don't know that specs are available but some have indicated the T & H OEM media is flow biased.

 

[mr_diy]

Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Maybe the reason Toyota and Honda opt for better flow than micron filtration is to limit or eliminate regular bypass and thus prevent flushing the particles that accumulate in the filter. The only upgraded filter would then be synthetic media to maintain OEM flow.

If winter is when bypasses are common then a test might be to compare filters changed in the winter with changes in the summer to see if there is a noticeable different in canister accumulated particles.


I'm not sure what filter efficiency has to do with filter capacity and bypass events. You would need more spec info about the media to draw any conclusions. I would rather have the crud in the filter than worry about particles that might wash out of the filter media.


I was thinking of the particles that collect in the canister that you find in the bottom when cut open, not what is imbedded in the media. These loose particles would seem likely to flush out.
Regarding efficiency vs flow, I don't know that specs are available but some have indicated the T & H OEM media is flow biased.


This supports my hypothesis on efficiency vs flow from Machinery Lubrication,

"The media pore size is the major determinant in how efficient and how small of a particle the filter can remove.

When these factors are combined, a problem arises. The physical size is usually constrained by design. The filter can’t be too large because of all the other components that we are trying to fit under the hood. The flow rate must be high enough to feed all the lubricated components. This means you can’t make the pore size too small or it will raise the pressure differential and the bypass valve will open, effectively rendering the filter useless."

Understanding Engine Oil Bypass Filtration

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979


True but we don't know if the media has similar or very different capacity. If you look at the low grade filters of most manufacturers they have lower efficiency but also less capacity. The higher end filters have both higher capacity and better efficiency due to better media.


You introduce too many variables here.

If you're assuming dissimilar construction, why not compare a Wix XP and a FRAM OCOD?

You have to assume like construction, with the exception of media efficiency, and with the same contaminant loading.

Then, the higher efficiency filter clogs and goes into bypass first every time.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The beauty of full synthetic media is that it can filter well, flow well and have high holding capacity all at the same time.

 

[steve20]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Not only does his answer help, but his actual field testing confirms it. Testing data outweighs verbal supposition, but when they actually agree (real world performance confirms design theory), you really cannot argue with it.


In short, the bypass RARELY opens, and even when it does, it is typically measured in fractional seconds.

This is, of course, presumed to be in a "normal" situation and not one of total neglect where the media is blinded off. But, given the capacity of any typical filter, and the clean running nature of engines over the last few decades, this is a moot point. Only a combination of total neglect AND an engine in poor state experiencing, heavy contaminat intrusion, would ever be at risk for this condition. Few people en-mass ever let this happen, and I cannot conceive of any BITOGer ever coming even remotely close to this.

Quit worrying about it.


What about ARCO? Just because it's possible