How Much cooler will 30/70 run than 50/50?

[OVERKILL]

Overkill sorry to let you know reading dozens of threads both past and present I am not the only member that suggested to go PM. I also clearly said that Mike is more then ok with posting what we talk about.

I'm not talking about other people, I'm talking about you in this thread. I'd encourage other posters to share information in the open as well, but this thread doesn't have those other posters in it, just you, hence you being the target of that criticism.

If you have no problem with Mike sharing the information, why not just skip the detour and share it here?

What Mike new to me and easy to correct. It’s what I have done as business successfully for a long time. You and others still think how did you insult me in your words “pompous know it all” lol if I had posted that Astro would be all over me . Lol

I'm not sure what you are saying here, sorry. I wasn't insulting you, I'm just explaining that you tend to come across as both pompous, and a know-it-all, which you are well aware of and I know mentioned it in previous interactions. I was pointing out that you don't seem to be putting much effort into toning that down.

There are plenty of other people on here who are highly intelligent but manage to not come across in this manner, so it is clear this is possible.

I don’t Squrill “ my information and really do try to help. But time and time again to many debate or disregard my help and information and seem to want to capitalize on my posting style,grammar,spelling and use of the English language.

Hey, you've professed to not being a good communicator, so I'm not going to hold that against you. That said, telling people to PM you for advice is indeed that "secret squirrel" type behaviour, that's what I was pointing out. I'm not debating you in this thread, I'm asking you to expand on the list I provided if you have further insight, which you are implying you do, but not divulging.

Yet I see members everyday with the same problems in that area of education. Lol

So again I will say you are Guessing in the wrong place . Maybe if I keep saying this the other experts will figure it out .

Or, instead of being aloof, you could just add some data/advice to the thread. That's what I'm encouraging you to do, and it would certainly work to improve how people perceive you, food for thought.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Coolant is illegal on many tracks today. Too slippery. Instead they run water and water wetter.

OP needs to understand what a thermostat is.

That's absolutely correct. When I ran on the street it was a 40/60 mix. On the track it was distilled water and WW.
And a huge air circulator between rounds to cool down the engine.

 

[OVERKILL]

Coolant is illegal on many tracks today. Too slippery. Instead they run water and water wetter.

This is true, particularly in non-street class racing. It's deemed a hazard and a real bugger to clean-up.

 

[Mike/Mass]

Mike:

Thanks for the additional information, and beautiful car BTW!

OK, since you are considerably above your thermostat temp on the highway, it sounds like you don't have enough radiator. While the Contour fans aren't as good as the Mark VIII fans, they shouldn't be inadequate. Going down the highway, airflow through the rad should be sufficient to keep the temp around that of the thermostat and clearly that isn't happening. Is there any factory shrouding or ducting that might have an impact on airflow through the rad that may have been removed?

FYI, a study done years ago indicated that an 180F coolant temp is right around "optimal". Going below that increased engine wear, going above that resulted in power loss because of the requirement to pull ignition timing.

I've used both a Taurus fan (on my modified fox body Mustang) and a Mark VIII fan (on my modified Town Car) and they were both more than capable of keeping the engine around the thermostat temp. The Mark VIII fan would kick on at 190 and draw it down to 185 rapidly. I used a more primitive setup than yours (large RV relay with on/off temps), while the Taurus fan was a bit slower so I had it kick on a bit lower and had it kick off closer to 180.

What are you using for a radiator? Is the option of going larger (more cores or taller/wider?) available? It looks like a nice aluminum unit, but clearly you are not able to properly shed the heat to keep it at thermostat temp.

Thanks for the props on the car. Its a never-ending project. The radiator is a Cold Case. unit, its made specifically for the '69 Camaro Big Blocks, and it has two (2) tubes inside that measure 1.250". I'm a member of Team Camaro and several members have used this radiator with their BBCs with no major issues. This radiator is an exact fit replacement for the factory BBC radiator. The SBC unit is smaller.

I've used the Lincoln Mk VIII fan on other rides in past years, its a beast. If there was a way to use it with my serpentine setup, I would have used it in a heartbeat. Ford seems to have a knack for designing cooling fans because the Lincoln, Taurus, and even the Volvo fans they've designed have been retrofitted to all kinds of specialty cars. What lead me to this fan setup was this article.

How to tame engine heat with a budget electric fan system​

I read the article and corresponded with Jeff Smith and Eric, the owner of the El Camino. Eric's out in California and running an almost identical engine in his car, but of course... he does have a different radiator. Because I couldn't fit the Contour's shroud and fans as an integral unit (by about 3/8") I designed and built the aluminum shroud, and reduced the Contour setup to a Siamesed dual fan unit. I cut away all the shroud material and left basic frame with eight flanges to mount the fans to the shroud.

In the back of my mind I'm thinking I'm not getting enough airflow, and the logical solution is trying to find different fans that will fit and pull more air. SPAL, Mishimoto, and Flex-a-Lite are possibilities. The possibility of a 3rd fan, a pusher up front is an alternative, but you have to wonder if that'd be blocking some airflow.

I should point out a little history... prior to COVID-2020 the car had the conventional v-belt setup with the 4 core old radiator and ran a 160° thermostat but it never ever ran at 160... it seemed quite happy at 175-185 on a hot day running down the highway, but in stop and go traffic it would climb up to 220. So during the past 18 months I tore into it, installed Vintage Air and the serpentine setup plus the aluminum radiator which was technically an upgrade. Could not fit the factory shroud no matter what. Nothing has changed in the timing or tune, car runs great starts right up and shuts off without any fuss. Oil pressure is fine, and I used the EMP/Stewart thermostats only because they ensure no air bubbles in the system. The water pump is a high-flow unit and bc its a serpentine, its also a reverse flow. And lastly... the car is just a brute of a cruiser, I've done a bit to the suspension so its lower and handles much better than ever. But I don't race it in any way. I drive to shows, cruise nights, take my grandkids out for ice cream, and I have driven it down to NJ from MA and put on 1500 miles in a week visiting relatives (before the new setup). I really enjoy driving it especially with the Vintage Air LOL. Right now I'm in the process of doing over the interior, and next spring I'm going to upgrade the rear suspension, brakes, and axle. Have most of the parts just a few more to get (POSI carrier & Moser Axles).

 

[OVERKILL]

Thanks for the props on the car. Its a never-ending project. The radiator is a Cold Case. unit, its made specifically for the '69 Camaro Big Blocks, and it has two (2) tubes inside that measure 1.250". I'm a member of Team Camaro and several members have used this radiator with their BBCs with no major issues. This radiator is an exact fit replacement for the factory BBC radiator. The SBC unit is smaller.

View attachment 72331
I've used the Lincoln Mk VIII fan on other rides in past years, its a beast. If there was a way to use it with my serpentine setup, I would have used it in a heartbeat. Ford seems to have a knack for designing cooling fans because the Lincoln, Taurus, and even the Volvo fans they've designed have been retrofitted to all kinds of specialty cars. What lead me to this fan setup was this article.

How to tame engine heat with a budget electric fan system​

I read the article and corresponded with Jeff Smith and Eric, the owner of the El Camino. Eric's out in California and running an almost identical engine in his car, but of course... he does have a different radiator. Because I couldn't fit the Contour's shroud and fans as an integral unit (by about 3/8") I designed and built the aluminum shroud, and reduced the Contour setup to a Siamesed dual fan unit. I cut away all the shroud material and left basic frame with eight flanges to mount the fans to the shroud.

View attachment 72334
In the back of my mind I'm thinking I'm not getting enough airflow, and the logical solution is trying to find different fans that will fit and pull more air. SPAL, Mishimoto, and Flex-a-Lite are possibilities. The possibility of a 3rd fan, a pusher up front is an alternative, but you have to wonder if that'd be blocking some airflow.

Is there supposed to be some ducting/shrouding below the rad to direct air through it? I know on my fox body this was the case. The fans shouldn't matter when you are going down the highway, they should be off as there should be sufficient airflow through the rad to keep it at t-stat temp. My fox was this way (of course it wasn't a BB) and that platform doesn't have anywhere near the frontal airflow area as your car, but it did have a lip down below that aided in directing air through the rad.

What rad did those guys use BTW? I wonder what the difference is between it and yours?

 

[Mike/Mass]

The radiator they used is bigger than mine. Its basically a Chevelle El Camino. Jeff told me that before I go nuts, I should check the timing. Said I should have at least 15 degrees initial - less and the engine will run warmer. Also, I should make sure the advance is all in by 3,000 rpm or sooner. This will also help. also said that a vacuum advance would help but I have a Pertronics electronic ignition and there's no vacuum advance involved. I'll have to borrow a timing light and get somebody to help me with the distributor twisting if it needs it.

 

[Chris142]

The aluminum radiator which was technically an upgrade.

How many fins per inch and what's the tube spacing?

 

[nthach]

Prestone and the other coolant brands sell a 33% premix for Mexico and south/Central America, which seems to be fine as long as you don’t go to the Andes Mountains or Chile’s Patagonia range. You’ll have to make your own 33/67 or 40/60 coolant mix in the US. In your case, I’d rather have the protection from a little antifreeze and some breathing room in case the temps fall below freezing - water wetter doesn’t offer much besides being a surfactant to prevent cavitation.

It’s your radiator cap that’s going to be a determinant in keeping things from boiling over. Your t-stat and fan controller can’t tell if you’re running straight water or a mix of coolant and water. On track days, you can run straight water.

 

[930.engineering]

The heat capacity of a 30/70 antifreeze mixture is approximately 10% higher than a 50/50 mixture, which is barely significant. Pure water has about 20% higher heat capacity than a 50/50 mixture.

As far as I know pure water has a specific heat capacity of 4,18 kJ/(kg·K) and glycol is about 2,5 kJ/(kg·K). That's almost 70 % more heat capacity for water compared to glycol. Automotive coolant will be slightly different, but main component for frost protection is still glycol. I could be wrong of course, but we should talk about the correct numbers preferably.

 

[nthach]

Automotive coolant will be slightly different, but main component for frost protection is still glycol. I could be wrong of course, but we should talk about the correct numbers preferably.

The gotcha is the corrosion inhibitors and other additives in automotive coolant that protect metals and prevent cavitation.

 

[930.engineering]

Yes, I know, but very few of that is required, so it shouldn't affect heat capacity that much.

 

[OVERKILL]

The radiator they used is bigger than mine. Its basically a Chevelle El Camino. Jeff told me that before I go nuts, I should check the timing. Said I should have at least 15 degrees initial - less and the engine will run warmer. Also, I should make sure the advance is all in by 3,000 rpm or sooner. This will also help. also said that a vacuum advance would help but I have a Pertronics electronic ignition and there's no vacuum advance involved. I'll have to borrow a timing light and get somebody to help me with the distributor twisting if it needs it.

Yes, the timing thing was what I touched on in one of my earlier posts. If it's retarded, it will produce excess heat, but the cooling system should still be able to deal with it unless it is extremely marginal, which brings us back to the cooling system being an issue.

What brand of rad are they using? Do they make one that fits your car? Is there any sort of air dam or similar that should be below the rad and isn't? I know I mentioned that earlier, but didn't see a response. This can be a significant factor when going down the road.

 

[Davejam]

Yeah, glycol is providing freeze protection.
Boil protection is a combination of glycol and pressure (radiator cap).
Various additives provide corrosion protection.

Cavitation protection is a bit more complex. This is inherently related to the boiling point of the mixture...so higher glycol will help per this article:

Effects of anti-freeze concentration in the engine coolant on the cavitation temperature of a water pump

Improvements in engine-manufacturing technology have gradually increased the thermal efficiencies of engines as well as the burning temperature and pr…

www.sciencedirect.com

But also organic acids prevent cavitation.
Air in the system will also promote cavitation, so naturally proper procedure to burp the cooling system is important from the start.

A lot of manufacturers will claim their coolant is ok for 60/40 (water/coolant) and still maintain mileage claims.
I'm sure you could do 70/30 and just change it sooner.
If you have to do more than 70% water then we're talking some other issue with your system.

 

[Mike/Mass]

Not my car but almost an exact duplicate. I have a center-mounted license plate. The black center grill is the only opening into which air can freely flow at highway speeds. The slotted ends are the electric headlight doors that swing aside when the headlights are on. I have the same front spoiler also and its only a air dam, there's no opening or ducting to the radiator.

The picture below shows the corner of the AC Condenser and the AC Drier with its plumbing. The location can be seen in the picture above if you look closely at the grill. Its on the left side.

 

[OVERKILL]

OK, so factory, there isn't anything that goes at the bottom of the rad to prevent air from bypassing it?

On the fox cars, we had this:

Not sure if you are familiar with the fox front end, but the GT had very little in the way of grille area:

Basically just that lower slit there. That air dam above, sits on the bottom of the rad cradle to direct air up into the cavity between the hood and the rad, forcing it to go through the rad.

My question was if there was supposed to be something similar in place on this car, or if there was maybe supposed to be a plate that prevented air from going out the bottom and bypassing the rad, similar to the cover you've made on the top.

 

[Jetronic]

OK, so factory, there isn't anything that goes at the bottom of the rad to prevent air from bypassing it?

On the fox cars, we had this:

Not sure if you are familiar with the fox front end, but the GT had very little in the way of grille area:

Basically just that lower slit there. That air dam above, sits on the bottom of the rad cradle to direct air up into the cavity between the hood and the rad, forcing it to go through the rad.

My question was if there was supposed to be something similar in place on this car, or if there was maybe supposed to be a plate that prevented air from going out the bottom and bypassing the rad, similar to the cover you've made on the top.

It would help a lot if the air has nowhere to go but through the radiator

 

[OVERKILL]

Was getting the battery changed on the truck today and looking at the fan I thought of this thread, lol.

She's a big girl:

 

[Mike/Mass]

Back in the '60's, GM Engineering was aware of the heat issues of BBC Camaros that had factor air conditioning. So what they decided was they needed to "funnel" as much cool air as possible into the AC Condenser/Radiator combo and minimize "spillage" out of that area in-between the grill and the core support. Up top, they added a foam strip to the core support to seal off the area in-between the hood and core support. Down below, they added a plastic "shield" that closed off the opening in-between the lower section of the core support and the lower edge of the front lower valance. In addition, they added small side panels with flexible edging that sat behind the headlight buckets and filled the gap in-between the core support and the outer fenders. So its a known problem. I'm still searching for an actual photo of a factory lower closeout panel.

One entrepreneur came up with a .040" sheet aluminum panel wide that not only closed out the front, but closed out the area under the motor. I have no clue as to why he extended/modified the factory design, but generally speaking the front half makes sense.

I don't have a sheet metal brake, but I think I can rig up some angle iron to create a couple of bends and replicate the front section of this idea.

Mike

 

[OVERKILL]

Back in the '60's, GM Engineering was aware of the heat issues of BBC Camaros that had factor air conditioning. So what they decided was they needed to "funnel" as much cool air as possible into the AC Condenser/Radiator combo and minimize "spillage" out of that area in-between the grill and the core support. Up top, they added a foam strip to the core support to seal off the area in-between the hood and core support. Down below, they added a plastic "shield" that closed off the opening in-between the lower section of the core support and the lower edge of the front lower valance. In addition, they added small side panels with flexible edging that sat behind the headlight buckets and filled the gap in-between the core support and the outer fenders. So its a known problem. I'm still searching for an actual photo of a factory lower closeout panel.

One entrepreneur came up with a .040" sheet aluminum panel wide that not only closed out the front, but closed out the area under the motor. I have no clue as to why he extended/modified the factory design, but generally speaking the front half makes sense.

I don't have a sheet metal brake, but I think I can rig up some angle iron to create a couple of bends and replicate the front section of this idea.

Mike

Sounds like a decent plan!