How angry pilots got the Navy to stop dismissing UFO sightings

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Originally Posted by buster
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

Unfortunately with UFO's, the majority of it is all testimonials from various individuals. The Bob Lazar story is interesting.


Lazar is a fraud. At best and as with all good forgeries, he may well have worked at "Area 51". But not as a scientist and not for the duration he claimed, more likely as a security system installer, as he acts like a charlatan and his story has been debunked thoroughly....
 
Originally Posted by buster
Bob Lazar..


Someone erased his records.


My, how convenient. I'm an astrophysicist with multiple degrees. Take my word for it! They deleted it all!!.

Actual scientists with their minds in the platitudes do not try to cash in on their stories, attract groupies and drive Corvettes. He doesn't exactly reek of Stephen Hawking...
 
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Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
How do you know we aren't colonists?


1. The vast majority of our DNA is common with the rest of life on Earth.
2. Where did we come from and where are the other planets they colonized?

If they're ten thousand years ahead of us, we're talking about aliens that would be capable of fun stuff like dismantling stars for raw materials to build something more useful. There's no way we'd miss that if they were doing it anywhere near us, and probably would see it even if it was happening on the far side of the galaxy.
 
Originally Posted by emg

1. The vast majority of our DNA is common with the rest of life on Earth.


Yep. Orangutans are pretty close to 97% of our DNA? No?

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2. Where did we come from and where are the other planets they colonized?


How in [censored] would I know?

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If they're ten thousand years ahead of us, we're talking about aliens that would be capable of fun stuff like dismantling stars for raw materials to build something more useful. There's no way we'd miss that if they were doing it anywhere near us, and probably would see it even if it was happening on the far side of the galaxy.


What if they're only 1000 years ahead of us and AI ghosted them?
 
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Originally Posted by buster
"SO, what Lazar is suggesting is that he has a stable isotope of E115. The isotopes of 115 we have synthetically created are highly radioactive, meaning they decay very rapidly. But, he's saying he has a portion of 115 of extraterrestrial origin with a number of protons and neutrons in its nucleus where they are all happy together (stable).

OP is providing the science that hypoth yes, there is a supposed "island of stability" around element 115 where science has predicted for there to be a stable isotope of that element"

Even if this were the case, and that certainly hasn't been demonstrated, none of that lends any credibility to what he says. In fact, other things that he says about it have been shown to be completely false. Okay, he claims a stable isotope and that it was only found in nature and is impossible to create in the lab. In fact, it's only been created in the lab.

His whopper about having stolen a large quantity of this element 115 from the U.S. government only to have every last gram stolen back back them speaks for itself.
 
Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
Lazar is a fraud. At best and as with all good forgeries, he may well have worked at "Area 51". But not as a scientist and not for the duration he claimed, more likely as a security system installer, as he acts like a charlatan and his story has been debunked thoroughly....

This is believable - an installer or a floor cleaner who violated his security clearance after seeing interesting things (not otherworldly things) that he really shouldn't have seen. Prosecuting him would be counterproductive since he'd love the publicity and he hasn't revealed anything useful or dangerous, not that he would know something useful or dangerous if it landed on his head after a twenty foot drop.
 
My two cents,

A: Concept of time. We have a hard time conceptualizing millions / billions of years. For example the earth is 4.5B years old and the Universe is estimated to be 14B yrs old.

B: Estimated to be 200B galaxies in the Universe and each could have 100 thousand million stars (current estimate of our galaxy). You can guess the number of planets but it's going to be a larger number.

C: Taking A and B together scientists have hypothised that the "lifespan" of a civilization is akin the flash of a firefly. Consequently you can imagine the difficulty of getting two civilizations to crosspaths. Note: one would have to travel faster than light (ex, worm hole).

D: Taking all of the above it's just as likely that an extraterrestrial has already visited earth millions or billions of years ago vs now or some time in the future. Visiting could be either manned or unmanned or both.
 
Forget Lazar, Stanton, and Roswell.

There are a few "investigators" who's work is a worthy of ones time.

The little Vallee I've read had an intermingling of lore and myth more like story time vs. scientific method from the little I looked at which turned me off to exploring deeper- Ill go back and review as it seems I may hav been judging his work from too few data points.

Robert Hastings work on UFOs and nukes is quite interesting - whatever the phenomenon is - it seems to be taking great interest in nukes globally.

You can go to youtube and watch his special - the guys at minutemen silos have come froward and described what they witnessed multiple time. This was repeated in the UK and in Russia on multiple occasions, also military spotters who were operating long range optical scoped following test ICBMS saw and recorded interference from objects with unachievable flight capabilities.

Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs work on abduction is also interesting and borderline frightening. These two pieced together thousands of fragments over decades to put together a unified story thats consistent from bubba and cletus to college professors, respected thought leaders, and highly visible public figures - all say the exact same thing - which would not occur in a scenario where they would be making up details. Most notable the minimization of their own self importance in any greater role.

Most related incidents I simply don't believe or believe there are terrestrial explanations for, but then these guys work, (Bud and Dave) that have approached the abduction phenomena using best practice and scientific method and their conclusions aren't happy or joyful but ominous leading toward an as yet undefined conclusion that doesn't look like its going to be pretty.

Most abductee claims only remember some bits, and some intentionally leave out other pieces of their stories, but when the bits are assembled back in and analyzed a different picture emerges. One example would be Barney and Betty hill. Betty claimed a pregnancy test was done on her, but Barneys experience had much omitted by both himself and what people felt comfortable publishing.

When it comes to David Jacobs work - I don't want to believe its true.


UD
 
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Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
Lazar is a fraud. At best and as with all good forgeries, he may well have worked at "Area 51". But not as a scientist and not for the duration he claimed, more likely as a security system installer, as he acts like a charlatan and his story has been debunked thoroughly....

This is believable - an installer or a floor cleaner who violated his security clearance after seeing interesting things (not otherworldly things) that he really shouldn't have seen. Prosecuting him would be counterproductive since he'd love the publicity and he hasn't revealed anything useful or dangerous, not that he would know something useful or dangerous if it landed on his head after a twenty foot drop.


It's probably 20 years now, but I read a book on Area 51 written from a skeptical but (open-minded) bent. They examined Lazar in depth and he certainly never met the profile of any scientist, even a renegade self-taught one, even if we allow for the fact he has no credentials. Typically high-minded, whistleblower scientists don't make a lot of money at speaking engagements or drive new corvettes, like he was. Even if the guber'mint destroyed his academic records, why didn't anyone remember him in their MIT (I think he claims he went there) physics classes? His stories have massive gaps and when his texts are 'deconstructed', he can only account for about two weeks of actual time despite his out-of-this-world claims.

Their conclusion was that he may well have worked at the Nellis range as a temporary security contractor possibly installing alarm systems, then just made up a lot he embellished what he had heard from hearsay giving some of his outlandish claims a tint of credibility with details. The author's criticisms of Lazar were not just that he was a fraud and conman making a buck on tall tales, but that he and people like him drew attention away from more worldly concerns about bases existing in ultra-secrecy - to the point where theoretically death squads could summarily execute people and then bury their bodies at "Area 51" and the FBI might not be allowed access to investigate. Or what about the legions of workers that never saw any UFO's? but were exposed to very toxic substances destroying their health but whose claims are squashed in the name of National Security?

Something I think that has largely been forgotten in the age of Post-911...
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by talest

...Lazar predicted the issuance of Ununpentium...




Care to clarify?


Sure. If it is more accurate to say he was talking about it in 1989..



So if he was saying it was around in 1989, then it was announced as a newly found thing in 2003 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=7958

Quote
"I hate to say it, but someone with a rudimentary undersanding of physics could predict the existence of element 115. However, as others have pointed out, Lazar claimed that 115 would be the threshold of atomic stability and could be used for practical applications (such as the manufacture of spacecraft). Not the case with the real element 115. Look, I'd love to believe Lazar but he's been thoroughly debunked at this point."


Quote
Background
Ununpentium was discovered in 2003 by a group of scientists working at the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research in Dubna, Russia, and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL), California. The group was headed by Yuri Oganessian and Ken Moody. As of now, the results for this element do not meet the criteria for discovery according to International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC).

The term ununpentium has been given on a temporary basis (the name literally means 'one-one-five'). Unless IUPAC validates its existence, it will not be entered into the periodic table.

Basic Information
Name Ununpentium
Symbol Uup
Atomic number 115
Atomic weight [ 288 ]
Standard state Presumably a solid at 298 K
CAS Registry ID 54085-64-2
Group in periodic table 15
Group name Pnictogen
Period in periodic table 7
Block in periodic table p-block
Color Unknown, but probably metallic and silvery white or grey in appearance
Classification Metallic
Melting point Unknown
Boiling point Unknown
Density Unknown
Phase at room temperature Expected to be a solid
Occurrence
It is a highly radioactive metal and only a few atoms have ever been produced.
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Forget Lazar, Stanton, and Roswell.

...Robert Hastings work on UFOs and nukes is quite interesting - whatever the phenomenon is - it seems to be taking great interest in nukes globally.

You can go to youtube and watch his special - the guys at minutemen silos have come froward and described what they witnessed multiple time. This was repeated in the UK and in Russia on multiple occasions, also military spotters who were operating long range optical scoped following test ICBMS saw and recorded interference from objects with unachievable flight capabilities...


UD


If you read these:

Declassified Documents

It appears that helicopter intrusions were the majority of intrusions around these bases. I have a friend who is a retired AF Col. and he commented one time that various security groups would stage unannounced intrusions to test security responses. Ever wondered why these targets were never fired upon, captured, or destroyed?

On a personal note, while developing Cruise Missile technology at MDAC, I held a Top Secret Clearance and was investigated every six months with an accompanying interview by D.I.A. personnel. I mean, they had bank records, knew I belonged to the NRA, had membership in the American Physical Society, my wife was a nurse and worked for XXX hospital,, etc., etc. One thing the DIA investigator personnel always iterated was that even after I was to leave this project or lose my TS clearance, I could not divulge any details about the technology under penalty of prosecution under various acts, because of the documents I had signed.

SO, I am curious about these Hastings interviews in which former military personnel with former TS clearances coming forth with various disclosures.

Were these people not held to the same security standards that a mere civilian contractor would have been held?
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Forget Lazar, Stanton, and Roswell.

There are a few "investigators" who's work is a worthy of ones time.

The little Vallee I've read had an intermingling of lore and myth more like story time vs. scientific method from the little I looked at which turned me off to exploring deeper- Ill go back and review as it seems I may hav been judging his work from too few data points.

Robert Hastings work on UFOs and nukes is quite interesting - whatever the phenomenon is - it seems to be taking great interest in nukes globally.

You can go to youtube and watch his special - the guys at minutemen silos have come froward and described what they witnessed multiple time. This was repeated in the UK and in Russia on multiple occasions, also military spotters who were operating long range optical scoped following test ICBMS saw and recorded interference from objects with unachievable flight capabilities.

Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs work on abduction is also interesting and borderline frightening. These two pieced together thousands of fragments over decades to put together a unified story thats consistent from bubba and cletus to college professors, respected thought leaders, and highly visible public figures - all say the exact same thing - which would not occur in a scenario where they would be making up details. Most notable the minimization of their own self importance in any greater role.

Most related incidents I simply don't believe or believe there are terrestrial explanations for, but then these guys work, (Bud and Dave) that have approached the abduction phenomena using best practice and scientific method and their conclusions aren't happy or joyful but ominous leading toward an as yet undefined conclusion that doesn't look like its going to be pretty.

Most abductee claims only remember some bits, and some intentionally leave out other pieces of their stories, but when the bits are assembled back in and analyzed a different picture emerges. One example would be Barney and Betty hill. Betty claimed a pregnancy test was done on her, but Barneys experience had much omitted by both himself and what people felt comfortable publishing.

When it comes to David Jacobs work - I don't want to believe its true.


UD





I agree both David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have done some really interesting work. I'm a big Vallee fan though I have not gone through all his books. His computer science knowledge is beyond my understanding so I have not even attempted to look at that.

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, nor do I know the answes to these questions. I will say though that as far as people believing in "stupid" things, millions of people on this planet do. Most of them believe in something forbidden to talk about BITOG that we all know of.....so yeah, the majority of the global population believe in "stupid" things.

I would argue the aforementioned OP topic is less "stupid" and "crazy" than so many other topics I could name.

The issue is we lack substantial evidence, although many would refute that claim. It's testimonal based. I never bought into the alien abductions but Bud Hopkins and Jacobs make some very compelling cases. It's hard to prove what is going on in someone's consciousness.

Interestingly enough, to me anyway, is the OP that the Navy and some senior officials are starting to push for taking these things more seriously. Especially the nuclear end of it as well as what these pilots observing "objects" that are significantly more advanced than known military craft in any global inventory.
 
Agreed, the majority of these so called UFO's were helicopter incursions.

There are hundreds if not thousands of pages open to scrubbing.

Concurrency between UFO sighting and missile alerts are whats interesting.
What triggered the missiles to go offline or worse yet - arm themselves concurrently if it were just " helicopter incursions" multiple times?

the same in the UK, and Russia.....



Check out Hastings lineup of retired officers its worth a listen/ view. They describe their clearances.


UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Agreed, the majority of these so called UFO's were helicopter incursions.


Concurrency between UFO sighting and missile alerts are whats interesting.
What triggered the missiles to go offline concurrent with mere " helicopter incursions" multiple times?

the same in the UK, and Russia.....



Check out Hastings lineup of retired officers its worth a listen/ view. They describe their clearances.


UD


I'll check it out sounds interesting. Thank you
 
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Agreed, the majority of these so called UFO's were helicopter incursions.


Concurrency between UFO sighting and missile alerts are whats interesting.
What triggered the missiles to go offline concurrent with mere " helicopter incursions" multiple times?

the same in the UK, and Russia.....



Check out Hastings lineup of retired officers its worth a listen/ view. They describe their clearances.


UD


I'll check it out sounds interesting. Thank you


I was quoting molakule but your post beat mine - its worth a watch in any case

This is mostly a testimonial based phenomenon.


Who do you trust?


Should you or I trust Gordon Cooper more than anyone here?

How about captain Terachi? No one I know sacrificed their career over this issue, but he did.


I have a very high level of distrust of both experts and institutions myself starting with the death of my grandfather from an ulcer.
"That cant be an infection no bacteria can live in your gut acid - that guy is a quack."




UD
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave
...I have a very high level of distrust of both experts and institutions myself starting with the death of my grandfather from an ulcer...UD



So a consortium of Universities with independent (non-DOD related) experts in the various fields I mentioned earlier, generating a public scientific report that investigated this issue, would not satisfy you?
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by UncleDave
...I have a very high level of distrust of both experts and institutions myself starting with the death of my grandfather from an ulcer...UD



So a consortium of Universities with independent (non-DOD related) experts in the various fields I mentioned earlier, generating a public scientific report that investigated this issue, would not satisfy you?




It likely could, and I think thats a good way to approach a subject.

I would approach any information with skepticism and mistrust until proven or demonstrated, or explained I should trust it.

I'm just a highly skeptical individual. Like James Randi.

I have an open mind, but believe people are often fooled and despise charlatanism.

UD
 
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Originally Posted by sloinker
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by buster
Quote
The probability of a more advanced civilization than human beings is very low

That's a very naive and arrogant way of thinking, no offense to you. Even from the scientists that try so hard to prove that mathematically.

I think you misunderstood. A low probability in a universe that contains possibly trillions of galaxies will still turn out to a big possible number.
But please explain, how will they be able to find us, never mind actually travel to our planet?

This is the correct answer. The distances required to travel is the real deal breaker imo unless these ET's live on a spacecraft that can last thousands and thousands of years while supporting the advanced biological beings aboard and travel at light speed and above.

A photon in a vacuum experiences no elapsed time...if one could travel close to the speed of light, the time experienced during a trip to another star system would be a small fraction of what an Earth observer would measure as the trip's length (the famous time dilation effect).
Now, actually being able to get to that kind of speed...big problem.

I think the limitation on any civilization advancing is the idea that the power it develops will nearly inevitably be used to destroy itself...
 
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