how accurate should the average joe be.

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Three times a year when you pay $10 to shoot all day?!?!

If you're only going three times a year, you'll forget what the instructor taught you before your next range session

Low and to the left usually means you're jerking the trigger


I use the M&P platform. When I switch to a Glock, I typically "push" low and left because on a Glock, I have found that more trigger finger is needed to "pull the front sight through the rear sight" smoothly.

I highly suggest a Frank Proctor pistol course. He will work on your brain. I went in not having a clue, and when I left, I could cleanly watch the pistol cycle, track the brass, describe how it spun in the air, track my sights, control the gun, etc. May sound stupid, but when you can see all of this happen, diagnosing and clearing a malfunction, calling your shots, rapidly firing multiple shots, it all happens so much easier. You have an amazing computer between your ears. All it takes is finding the "on" switch, and a quality instructor can help!

The more you muck around on your own, the more [censored] you bury that on switch under, and the more digging you will do to reach it.

 

[bowlofturtle]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Three times a year when you pay $10 to shoot all day?!?!

If you're only going three times a year, you'll forget what the instructor taught you before your next range session

Low and to the left usually means you're jerking the trigger


Its $10 all day but only if you go at a certain time to start and then you stay til your tired or broke. Its like every 2nd tuesday and thursday but you have to come in before 11am and they close at 6pm.


I'm a left handed shooter. I aim dead center and get left and/or low.

I'm doing this for home defense with the 9's and fun for the 22s

 

[billt460]

Remember. It isn't how much you shoot. It's how WELL you shoot. That pretty much applies with any sport you care to undertake in. The best way to accomplish that is by getting some proper training.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Ws6
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: bowlofturtle
I feel i'm the average joe, maybe one tier lower when it comes to range time and firearms.

I average 3 times a year and about 150 rounds each time. Typically borrow my friend's firearms and bring my SR22 pistol. So i'm normally shooting 9mm and once in a while 45s.

I'm debating if i should pay for an instructor to help improve accuracy or just try to put more range time in.



So back to this... a normal target ( B27), full size poster like thing. At 30 feet, i CANT hit a bulleye but i'll hit 5/10 rounds in the 7 or 8 circle consistently. (i'm shooting low and left) 3/10 will be on paper but not in circle and once in a while one doesn't make it on paper.


If you're going to be a competitive shooter, take a class.

If you're using it for home defense and can reliably hit a silhouette at 30' then you're probably good. But you could still take a class, since it sounds important to you to improve.


If it's about fun and games, you should learn more. If you're just defending your life and those of your loved one's, it doesn't much matter if you actually train or learn or not.

Wonderful logic. Luck is the last dying hope of the unprepared.


I can see how you misinterpreted my post and went all the way with your false assumption. I forgive you for it, and won't bother to clarify for your amusement.

 

[Robenstein]

The average joe just need to be competent at normal combat ranges. Chances are, even if you are super accurate at shooting at paper targets, your accuracy will largely go to *expletive of excrement* in a fight or flight scenario. Your biology just works against you in those situations, especially with a handgun.

 

[totegoat]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The average joe just need to be competent at normal combat ranges. Chances are, even if you are super accurate at shooting at paper targets, your accuracy will largely go to *expletive of excrement* in a fight or flight scenario. Your biology just works against you in those situations, especially with a handgun.


At least in my town, every police shooting involving more than one officer, shows many more shots fired than hits on the perp.
I assume they can all qualify on paper at the range. Not criticizing, just how it shakes out.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The average joe just need to be competent at normal combat ranges. Chances are, even if you are super accurate at shooting at paper targets, your accuracy will largely go to *expletive of excrement* in a fight or flight scenario. Your biology just works against you in those situations, especially with a handgun.


At least in my town, every police shooting involving more than one officer, shows many more shots fired than hits on the perp.
I assume they can all qualify on paper at the range. Not criticizing, just how it shakes out.


I saw something the other day where it was quoted that around 70 percent of shots fired by LEOs miss.
http://www.building365atbaf.com/?p=505

Maybe it is accurate and maybe it isnt, but you can find lots of stories that back up the idea. This one is the worst I have seen so far.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-...ticle-1.2348489

 

[billt460]

It really is pathetic. Then after seeing all that, they, (liberal anti gun politicians), have the audacity to accuse citizens who carry of, "not being competently trained". Who are they kidding? I remember back in the 90's when Florida passed the nations first concealed carry law that spawned all the rest. They predicted there would be "shootouts in the streets over fender benders". These liberals just never know when to quit. They think not getting caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: billt460
They think not getting caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth.



A witty man named Churchill once said "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
A witty man named Churchill once said "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."


One of the best Winston Churchill stories I ever heard, was when he was attending a State Dinner at the White House. He was seated next to Mary Astor, a prominent New York socialite who despised men who drank. Churchill liked his Brandy after dinner. And after dinner was served the waiter brought Churchill a large decanter of Brandy, and a glass. Churchill immediately poured himself a healthy glass, and lit up a cigar. Astor glared at him and said, "If you were my husband I would poison that drink!" Churchill replied back, "If you were my wife I'd drink it!".... It's got to be one of the best comebacks of all time.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The average joe just need to be competent at normal combat ranges. Chances are, even if you are super accurate at shooting at paper targets, your accuracy will largely go to *expletive of excrement* in a fight or flight scenario. Your biology just works against you in those situations, especially with a handgun.


This latter is very true. That is why I think merely being competent is not enough.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
A witty man named Churchill once said "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."


One of the best Winston Churchill stories I ever heard, was when he was attending a State Dinner at the White House. He was seated next to Mary Astor, a prominent New York socialite who despised men who drank. Churchill liked his Brandy after dinner. And after dinner was served the waiter brought Churchill a large decanter of Brandy, and a glass. Churchill immediately poured himself a healthy glass, and lit up a cigar. Astor glared at him and said, "If you were my husband I would poison that drink!" Churchill replied back, "If you were my wife I'd drink it!".... It's got to be one of the best comebacks of all time.


When at the White House, he also had a penchant for calling for for the servants who would enter the room to find him totally naked.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: Ws6
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The average joe just need to be competent at normal combat ranges. Chances are, even if you are super accurate at shooting at paper targets, your accuracy will largely go to *expletive of excrement* in a fight or flight scenario. Your biology just works against you in those situations, especially with a handgun.


This latter is very true. That is why I think merely being competent is not enough.


It is hard to train yourself for the stresses of self defense and combat. The work of SLA Marshall in WW2 and Korea showed that to be glaringly true and is has since been expanded upon by Dave Grossman. I know in his work on Korea, Marshall saw riflemen who had attained Expert Marksmanship unable to hit enemy troops walking at 150 yards. Why? Because the rifle training and certifications did not translate well to reality. Paper targets don't move, and your body doesn't get into the fight or flight mode shooting at paper.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: Ws6
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The average joe just need to be competent at normal combat ranges. Chances are, even if you are super accurate at shooting at paper targets, your accuracy will largely go to *expletive of excrement* in a fight or flight scenario. Your biology just works against you in those situations, especially with a handgun.


This latter is very true. That is why I think merely being competent is not enough.


It is hard to train yourself for the stresses of self defense and combat. The work of SLA Marshall in WW2 and Korea showed that to be glaringly true and is has since been expanded upon by Dave Grossman. I know in his work on Korea, Marshall saw riflemen who had attained Expert Marksmanship unable to hit enemy troops walking at 150 yards. Why? Because the rifle training and certifications did not translate well to reality. Paper targets don't move, and your body doesn't get into the fight or flight mode shooting at paper.


Very true! Force on force training with simunitions is a great tool in addition to marksmanship on the square range.

 

[Cujet]

I'm strongly left eye dominant and strongly right handed. This prevents me from using the "two eyes open" method. As what my brain sees, with both eyes open, is not where the pistol is actually aimed.

Plus, as I've aged and required reading glasses, it's introduced a bit of fuzziness to the sights on a pistol.

I've found that my accuracy is very gun and optic specific. When I get the combo correct, I'm quite accurate. I can outshoot my boss who has far more training than I do. That's because I understand "my" gun, and I'm proficient with it.

What works for me:


white, 3 dot pistol sights
AGOG
SS 10X scope
Eotech
quality micro red dot on a pistol

What does not work are conventional "iron" sights, generally black in color, either on a pistol or rifle.

Keep in mind that I have a backyard shooting range with spinning targets. So I can hone my accuracy and test ammo/guns when ever I want.

I don't have combat training, and at this point I'm a bit old for that. As a pilot, I don't panic, and I keep a clear head under stress. I've been attacked and I performed well.

 

[billt460]

The whole thing about this is that it shouldn't matter if you're an "average Joe" or not. At the risk of sounding like a military recruiting commercial, you should be all that you can be, regardless of how much or how often you shoot. Good training translates into good shooting fundamentals. Once you learn those, and have them burned into your memory, you will shoot better. This no matter if you employ your new found skills 5 times a year, or 55.

Again back to golf. All walks of people take lessons from a pro. No matter if they golf 36 holes in a Summer. Or 36 holes twice a week. Yes, practice makes perfect. Be it golf, tennis, or shooting. No doubt about it. But think about this. The better you shoot, the more you will want to shoot. Being more successful at any given sport will make you want to do it more. In short, there is no substitute for some good training. It's all but invaluable.