Mola seems to think the DW-1 VOA from the Russian Oil Club is incorrect. I haven't done a VOA on DW-1, but I did a UOA on the factory-fill in my 2013 Honda pickup at ~10k miles and it showed 379ppm Zn, and 0 P. I thus am not convinced the Russian Oil Club VOA is in error.
Honda Transmission Fluids
- Thread starter Rancha9
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
I like to drain/refill with Honda ATF cause the shifts remain buttery smoooooooth.
+1 on drain/fill
I drain / fill 3 lt. on the TL [4 on the MDX] ATF every spring time OCI.
Just because its so easy....
From my experience, my TL trans was screaming on Castrol MV Synth for Asian imports... i couldn't get it out fast enough.
MaxLife is harder to find in my neck of the woods.. and if you do find it .. its expensive, I once saw a 5lt jug at a TSC store for ~50.00
Redline/amsoil etc ATF here are over the top $ as well..
I like to drain/refill with Honda ATF cause the shifts remain buttery smoooooooth.
+1 on drain/fill
I drain / fill 3 lt. on the TL [4 on the MDX] ATF every spring time OCI.
Just because its so easy....
From my experience, my TL trans was screaming on Castrol MV Synth for Asian imports... i couldn't get it out fast enough.
MaxLife is harder to find in my neck of the woods.. and if you do find it .. its expensive, I once saw a 5lt jug at a TSC store for ~50.00
Redline/amsoil etc ATF here are over the top $ as well..
Majestic Honda has DW1 for less than $6, you have to order 10-12 to make shipping worth it. I just wait until I need some other Honda part.
Early Honda V6 transmissions had issues. The 03 Pilots (at least) even had a recall/upgrade. Homda made midyear revisions for 2 or 3 years straight! By5 things got better and by 06 they were solid... if you keep up with maintenance.
I used MaxLife after a bad radiator mixed coolant into my ATF (a common 05 Pilot problem). It was cheap and available at Walmart. I went through 3 jugs quick. Now that's under control, I am moving it back to DW-1, one drain-n-fill at a time.
Early Honda V6 transmissions had issues. The 03 Pilots (at least) even had a recall/upgrade. Homda made midyear revisions for 2 or 3 years straight! By5 things got better and by 06 they were solid... if you keep up with maintenance.
I used MaxLife after a bad radiator mixed coolant into my ATF (a common 05 Pilot problem). It was cheap and available at Walmart. I went through 3 jugs quick. Now that's under control, I am moving it back to DW-1, one drain-n-fill at a time.
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Originally Posted by XL1200RFan
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Excellent fluid. I like it better than DW-1, which I have been using for years. No more...
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Excellent fluid. I like it better than DW-1, which I have been using for years. No more...
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by XL1200RFan
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Excellent fluid. I like it better than DW-1, which I have been using for years. No more...
Curious what makes you like it better?
Originally Posted by XL1200RFan
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Excellent fluid. I like it better than DW-1, which I have been using for years. No more...
Curious what makes you like it better?
Between my own garage and my and my wife's family, I've had experience with 14 hondas with ATs, and 3 with manuals. 6 of them had ATs from the problematic era. Of those 6, only 2 gave us any trouble. 1 (02 accord 4cyl 4spd auto) had an annoying 1-2 shift flare which was always there but never broke down, the other was a 97 CRV which developed problems after doing a routine drain fill - in which case I used Maxlife per the recommendation of this board around 2004 or so. I've seen 2 MDXs and 1 odyssey with the notorious 5 spd come and go, and neither of them had a lick of trouble - they all also had the factory recall performed sometime earlier. We've got a civic (auto) with over 350,000 miles on it, driven now by my brother who spends a lot of time at WOT in the rockies. People talk about bad honda ATs like they are prominent, but I just haven't seen the problems in my sampling to think the reality is as bad as the rap.
I use amsoil now in them, all of them, period. BUT, most of them are not under my care and don't ever get anything outside of what the dealer suggests, IF they elect to spend the extra $ on it. That civic with 350k saw its first AT fluid change from me at 200,000. My mother is pretty sure that was the first trans service on it (yes, it didn't look great when it came out, pretty nasty, but 200k!).
The accord with the shift flare was our only close call within that "notorious" line of bad ATs. Had that transmission been mated to a V6, it would have been recalled - it was in that bad batch. I played with fluids including Z1, lubegard, Mobile 1 syn ATF, and ultimately toned it down nicely without impacting the other shifts too much simply by adding M1 Syn ATF at a 1:8 ratio to Z1. Drove great, sold it that way years later. The 97 CRV had no problems until the D/F to maxlife. Don't know if it freed up some crud or not, but it started hanging into gears to redline and then slam-shifting to the tune of undriveability. Reverting to Z1 cured 75% of that, but never fully recovered (clogged solenoids, jammed solenoids?). That unit was not one known to have any issues, and it was used to us, so I can't say with certainty what happened before it, or why the change to Maxlife catalyzed a failure which it wasn't showing signs of prior. Note I'm not blaming ML - since so many others have used it trouble-free - but clearly there wasn't a problem, and then there was, so something was different about that unit, either by MFR or prior ownership.
As for the OP's 1998, I believe that predates ALL of the questionable years came later. I had a '96. It was as solid as they came.
I use amsoil now in them, all of them, period. BUT, most of them are not under my care and don't ever get anything outside of what the dealer suggests, IF they elect to spend the extra $ on it. That civic with 350k saw its first AT fluid change from me at 200,000. My mother is pretty sure that was the first trans service on it (yes, it didn't look great when it came out, pretty nasty, but 200k!).
The accord with the shift flare was our only close call within that "notorious" line of bad ATs. Had that transmission been mated to a V6, it would have been recalled - it was in that bad batch. I played with fluids including Z1, lubegard, Mobile 1 syn ATF, and ultimately toned it down nicely without impacting the other shifts too much simply by adding M1 Syn ATF at a 1:8 ratio to Z1. Drove great, sold it that way years later. The 97 CRV had no problems until the D/F to maxlife. Don't know if it freed up some crud or not, but it started hanging into gears to redline and then slam-shifting to the tune of undriveability. Reverting to Z1 cured 75% of that, but never fully recovered (clogged solenoids, jammed solenoids?). That unit was not one known to have any issues, and it was used to us, so I can't say with certainty what happened before it, or why the change to Maxlife catalyzed a failure which it wasn't showing signs of prior. Note I'm not blaming ML - since so many others have used it trouble-free - but clearly there wasn't a problem, and then there was, so something was different about that unit, either by MFR or prior ownership.
As for the OP's 1998, I believe that predates ALL of the questionable years came later. I had a '96. It was as solid as they came.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by XL1200RFan
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Excellent fluid. I like it better than DW-1, which I have been using for years. No more...
Curious what makes you like it better?
We bought our TSX new; I have serviced the transmission regularly at about 25K intervals with DW-1.
Spill and fill 3 quarts; easy peasey.
Last service, at about 180K miles, I used the Idemitsu equivalent; there was a noticeable difference.
The car pulled stronger, especially at low to mid speeds, like around town.
Amazon now has 4 (maybe 5?) quart jugs at a good price.
The TSX has been a wonderful car.
That's my experience.
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by XL1200RFan
For the past 6 months or so I've been using Idemitsu Type H Plus in my shop when performing routine D&F for my Honda customers.
Excellent fluid. I like it better than DW-1, which I have been using for years. No more...
Curious what makes you like it better?
We bought our TSX new; I have serviced the transmission regularly at about 25K intervals with DW-1.
Spill and fill 3 quarts; easy peasey.
Last service, at about 180K miles, I used the Idemitsu equivalent; there was a noticeable difference.
The car pulled stronger, especially at low to mid speeds, like around town.
Amazon now has 4 (maybe 5?) quart jugs at a good price.
The TSX has been a wonderful car.
That's my experience.
Originally Posted by onion
I debated for quite a long time over whether or not to run Honda ATF in my wife's '04 Accord. Here are some relevant facts that I don't think are in dispute:
Honda automatic transmissions have a spotty (at best) reputation for reliability.
Honda automatic transmissions are fundamentally different in their design from the vast majority of other brands of automatic transmissions (most use planetaries whereas a honda uses a design similar to a manual transmission with clutch packs instead of synchronizer hubs)
Oil analysis shows that the additive package (particularly the friction modifiers) used in Honda ATF is significantly different from that used in most common ATF's.
DW-1, Honda's latest ATF, is marketed as an improvement over Z1, is backwards compatible, and available for about $8 per quart.
Based on those facts (and somebody please correct me if those are not 'facts'), I've decided that I'm going to stick with Dw-1 at least for now. It isn't much more expensive than alternatives of questionable compatibility, and DW-1 guarantees that Honda's (apparently) odd friction requirements will be met.
I could go with MaxLife at around $6 per quart and save a total of maybe $60 over the next 100k miles. Or I could pay an extra $60 or so and go with Amsoil or the like. But neither is what these rather odd Honda transmissions were designed for. And for a transmission that costs easily $3000 to rebuild, that isn't much of a price incentive.
I've read that DW-1 is synthetic. And I've read that is isn't. I really don't know, and it doesn't really say on the bottle. I would THINK that it would say on the bottle if it were a 'true' group IV or V synthetic. It's advertized as improving cold-weather performance over Z1, which implies (though doesn't necessarily mean) a better base stock. So my guess- and it's only a guess- is that DW-1 more of a semi-synthetic or a blend, kinda like DexVI and MerconV... but with Honda-specific friction modifiers.
I wonder how this information is spread? Z1 was close to indentical to DEX III as you could get.
I debated for quite a long time over whether or not to run Honda ATF in my wife's '04 Accord. Here are some relevant facts that I don't think are in dispute:
Honda automatic transmissions have a spotty (at best) reputation for reliability.
Honda automatic transmissions are fundamentally different in their design from the vast majority of other brands of automatic transmissions (most use planetaries whereas a honda uses a design similar to a manual transmission with clutch packs instead of synchronizer hubs)
Oil analysis shows that the additive package (particularly the friction modifiers) used in Honda ATF is significantly different from that used in most common ATF's.
DW-1, Honda's latest ATF, is marketed as an improvement over Z1, is backwards compatible, and available for about $8 per quart.
Based on those facts (and somebody please correct me if those are not 'facts'), I've decided that I'm going to stick with Dw-1 at least for now. It isn't much more expensive than alternatives of questionable compatibility, and DW-1 guarantees that Honda's (apparently) odd friction requirements will be met.
I could go with MaxLife at around $6 per quart and save a total of maybe $60 over the next 100k miles. Or I could pay an extra $60 or so and go with Amsoil or the like. But neither is what these rather odd Honda transmissions were designed for. And for a transmission that costs easily $3000 to rebuild, that isn't much of a price incentive.
I've read that DW-1 is synthetic. And I've read that is isn't. I really don't know, and it doesn't really say on the bottle. I would THINK that it would say on the bottle if it were a 'true' group IV or V synthetic. It's advertized as improving cold-weather performance over Z1, which implies (though doesn't necessarily mean) a better base stock. So my guess- and it's only a guess- is that DW-1 more of a semi-synthetic or a blend, kinda like DexVI and MerconV... but with Honda-specific friction modifiers.
I wonder how this information is spread? Z1 was close to indentical to DEX III as you could get.
Originally Posted by bulwnkl
Mola seems to think the DW-1 VOA from the Russian Oil Club is incorrect. I haven't done a VOA on DW-1, but I did a UOA on the factory-fill in my 2013 Honda pickup at ~10k miles and it showed 379ppm Zn, and 0 P. I thus am not convinced the Russian Oil Club VOA is in error.
And there are VOA's showing no Zinc and about 350PPM's of Phosphorus and there are still more showing additives and viscosity similar to DEX VI.
Mola seems to think the DW-1 VOA from the Russian Oil Club is incorrect. I haven't done a VOA on DW-1, but I did a UOA on the factory-fill in my 2013 Honda pickup at ~10k miles and it showed 379ppm Zn, and 0 P. I thus am not convinced the Russian Oil Club VOA is in error.
And there are VOA's showing no Zinc and about 350PPM's of Phosphorus and there are still more showing additives and viscosity similar to DEX VI.
One of the Phos examples https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4604932/Aisin_Brand_DW-1_transmission_
I have a 2004 2.4l Accord that specs Z1. Ten years ago at 80k miles, I did a 3 drains and fills with Redline D4 and another drain and fill at 140k miles. Now at 170k, it still drives and shifts great, and the D4 is still red(ish).
I chose Redline D4 (synthetic) because the Accord was my primary car, and I didn't have to change the ATF often (my mechanic did it for me). If I have means to change the ATF myself, I would use Valvoline Maxlife Multi-vehicle ATF based on (mostly) postive feedback here and various Honda forums.
I chose Redline D4 (synthetic) because the Accord was my primary car, and I didn't have to change the ATF often (my mechanic did it for me). If I have means to change the ATF myself, I would use Valvoline Maxlife Multi-vehicle ATF based on (mostly) postive feedback here and various Honda forums.
Quote
One of the Phos examples https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4604932/Aisin_Brand_DW-1_transmission_
For clarity sake, link is not for Honda labeled DW1 fluid showing Phos. This is Aisin DW1 'formula' ATF.
Since Z1 discontinued I've used MaxLife in two Hondas specing Z1. Many years, lots of miles between them, ~25k mile single d&fs, working fine for me. At this point, no reason to change.
One of the Phos examples https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4604932/Aisin_Brand_DW-1_transmission_
For clarity sake, link is not for Honda labeled DW1 fluid showing Phos. This is Aisin DW1 'formula' ATF.
Since Z1 discontinued I've used MaxLife in two Hondas specing Z1. Many years, lots of miles between them, ~25k mile single d&fs, working fine for me. At this point, no reason to change.
Originally Posted by fsdork
Z1 has since been replaced by DW1, which is listed as backwards compatible by Honda. Given the questionable durability of Honda automatics of that era, I wouldn't want to add another possible reason for mine to fail. I'm running DW1 in my 92 Accord with no issues. YMMV.
Originally Posted by ahoier
On a side note; a friend of mine has a 94 Honda Accord LX....tranny went out on it. So they got a replacement from the scrap yard from a "newer model" Accord, but same exact tranny, only lower miles. They went to Advance to get the ATF, and the counter guy sold them DEXIII multi vehicle ATF.....with no "Honda" anywhere on the bottle.......
He said the car shifts fine though....
The dipstick and owner's manual for my 92 Accord just say to use Dexron II. No mention of any special Honda fluid. I use Maxlife in mine. 205k miles so far and never had a transmission problem.
Originally Posted by onion
As for 'spotty' reliability, I was referring to Honda transmissions in general. They've had enough failure-prone models over the years so that even people who own their more reliable transmissions can't help but be paranoid.
I have one of the many Honda automatics that are known to be reliable and I'm not paranoid at all.
Z1 has since been replaced by DW1, which is listed as backwards compatible by Honda. Given the questionable durability of Honda automatics of that era, I wouldn't want to add another possible reason for mine to fail. I'm running DW1 in my 92 Accord with no issues. YMMV.
Originally Posted by ahoier
On a side note; a friend of mine has a 94 Honda Accord LX....tranny went out on it. So they got a replacement from the scrap yard from a "newer model" Accord, but same exact tranny, only lower miles. They went to Advance to get the ATF, and the counter guy sold them DEXIII multi vehicle ATF.....with no "Honda" anywhere on the bottle.......
He said the car shifts fine though....
The dipstick and owner's manual for my 92 Accord just say to use Dexron II. No mention of any special Honda fluid. I use Maxlife in mine. 205k miles so far and never had a transmission problem.
Originally Posted by onion
As for 'spotty' reliability, I was referring to Honda transmissions in general. They've had enough failure-prone models over the years so that even people who own their more reliable transmissions can't help but be paranoid.
I have one of the many Honda automatics that are known to be reliable and I'm not paranoid at all.
Originally Posted by dave1251
One of the Phos examples https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4604932/Aisin_Brand_DW-1_transmission_
That's not _Honda_ DW-1, that's an aftermarket product marketed at Honda owners. And I have no clue who copied that post of mine into this thread. This isn't where I put it and it isn't where it belongs. The thread where I posted that has the appropriate discussion of this in context with both _Honda_ ATF and a couple of supposed clones which it turns out aren't clones at all.
One of the Phos examples https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4604932/Aisin_Brand_DW-1_transmission_
That's not _Honda_ DW-1, that's an aftermarket product marketed at Honda owners. And I have no clue who copied that post of mine into this thread. This isn't where I put it and it isn't where it belongs. The thread where I posted that has the appropriate discussion of this in context with both _Honda_ ATF and a couple of supposed clones which it turns out aren't clones at all.
I used Maxlife in our 08 CRV. Did great even at 180K at trade in. Now we have a 18 CRV with the CVT. Hopping this one will last as long if not longer. That's if the so called fuel dilution issue doesn't take the engine out before then. Last time I checked the oil it hasn't risen.
- Status
