Honda has developed a 0W-10

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Honda makes more internal combustion engines than anyone else in the world, automotive small and marine combined. I can't believe people around here are so quick to question their engineering.

No no, you don't get it! They are the OEM = their goal is to make engines that will meet EPA standards and then blow up!

 

[CATERHAM]

If they do market the FF oil I don't see any reason to expect it to be expensive. A major formulator can do things that a boutique one simply can't. I mean could Bruce replicate Honda's 0W-20 with it's 200+ VI (don't think so) and definitely not at the price level Honda is charging even if he could.

Besides, joking aside (I know it's hard), I didn't get the impression from the Honda chemist that they were going to market a 0W-10 any time soon despite the fact it's the factory fill on a couple cars.

BTW, a likely candidate for the oil would have to be the new Honda Insight. So if there are any BITOG members who are planning on buying this car a FF UOA would be neat.

 

[Geonerd]

Originally Posted By: Troy_Built
I would think that is waaayyyyyyyyyy to thin to put in small 4cyl cars.

I would be [censored] if that was put for the FF in my new car.


The appropriate viscosity all depends on the bearing design and engine RPM range. Starting with a current 4 banger, a modest increase in the journal surface area should allow 10W oil to work perfectly well.

MotoGP and EffWun engines turn ~19K and make gobs of power, yet run absurdly thin oils (somewhere around 0W, I think) with great success.

 

[Quest]

Don't worry BITOGERs, so long as there's tons of mal/misinformed common motoring joes out there, there shall always be bashers that come around and bash anything thinner than 10W40.

Jokes aside: 5W30/5W20 are some of the best blends that the automotive industry have seen in decades: it has to be shear-stable not to go down any further(thinner), yet robust enough to maintain volatility to resist boiling off and yet still deliver reasonable lubricity, suspend the bearings and gets its job done at the end of the day (that's why even conventional 5W20/5W30 that passed API SM/ILSAC GF4 has to be some form of Gp2+ blends in order to make it through most NA certifications and tests)

That's why all the naysayers back in the late 90s/early 00s who critised about 5W20 will soon "grind" your engine into powder in less than XXX numbers of miles are now (all) eating humble pies.

Nuff said.

Q

 

[OilNerd]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
That's it then. I'm ponying up and having Bruce blend up a 55 gallon drum of this stuff (assuming he's done with tinkering). I assure you that Honda OEM oil will cost a fortune and make Bruce's blend a very competitive product.

Don't shoot your eye out, Gary!

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I mean could Bruce replicate Honda's 0W-20 with it's 200+ VI (don't think so) and definitely not at the price level Honda is charging even if he could.


I dunno. Given the latitude of 4+ cSt more to work with, who knows?

He won't be slammed against the floor due to so low a ceiling. If you catch my drift ..but you could be right. I think his producer costs won't be trumped retail, but bringing it to market ..then, yeah, sure, Honda will probably have it available for quart cash&carry and probably $12-$15 retail. I doubt it will be a $6/quart oil. Bruce's producer costs (not adjusted for intermediate inflation) were $5/quart+/-.

That said, Bruce's formula would not meet SM/SN. It's an SL formula ..but there's always that window of shrewd and cunning weaseling opportunity in the exploitation of that perceived need for "something extra" in there.

Quote:
I didn't get the impression from the Honda chemist that they were going to market a 0W-10 any time soon despite the fact it's the factory fill on a couple cars.


All in due time. I'm surprised Ford hasn't beaten them to this punch. Honda is a natural for this, but Ford really started a market revolution with going lighter. I'm enjoying this game of "bottom this". There isn't much more to shave on viscosity, but as you pointed out, there's advancements in VI to be achieved. We'll eventually see (hopefully) VI's of 250-300+ that would extend the benefits of thinner oils earlier in the typical driving event.

 

[Michael_P]

Yup! I can see the day where we won't use MMO because it's too thick. Wait til ceramics hit the scene. I read in Popular Science a few years back where GM had built a ceramic lined engine (rings, cylinder liners, rods, mains & cam) which was lubricated on something similar to something between kerosene and sewing machine oil. With ceramics, no major additive packages are needed.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I'd run it in my Crown Vic.


Please let me know how it turns out!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Honda makes more internal combustion engines than anyone else in the world, automotive small and marine combined. I can't believe people around here are so quick to question their engineering. Then again, I guess once you hit 200 posts on an oil forum you've learned everything there is to know.

I wouldn't be too quick to buy an automatic transmission from them, but if it has a spark plug they know more about it than we do.


I'm not sure on the engine stats, but you learn something new everyday. If Honda designed the engine, and spec'd an oil for the engine, then that would be the oil I use. If Honda tested the engine to run on 0W10, and the oil is available I'd use it with no hesitation. Thinner oils are the wave of the future, and the engine design team knows what is best for their engines. Now because it works in the new Hondas doesn't mean it will work in an older one. I'd stick to what the mfg suggested for the engine, if it is back spec'd I'd try that oil.

Funny MMO came up in this thread, seems they're ahead of the times. LOL

 

[Truck&Cycle]

-30W - 0 is the only oil for me. Great fuel mileage and no wear at start up.




After the first start, no wear at all because the engine will never start again.

 

[charbaby]

Im sure that if 0W10 was more commercially available, Honda and other MFG's would have considered it long ago. But, with only several 0W10's available here, why would they.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: bepperb
Honda makes more internal combustion engines than anyone else in the world, automotive small and marine combined. I can't believe people around here are so quick to question their engineering.

No no, you don't get it! They are the OEM = their goal is to make engines that will meet EPA standards and then blow up!


If they lose their reputation for "quality", they won't sell any more cars. It's true they don't want cars to last too long, because they want to sell new ones, but they also want to keep dealer service departments servicing cars out there on the road and preserve image.

I think you're jumping on them a little harshly.

Although I've owned Honda cars in the past they don't currently address my current areas of automotive interest (I'm a fan of Euro cars). But I don't feel that Honda is a bunch of incompetent crooks, particularly just from their choice of oil weight.

 

[d00df00d]

I was being sarcastic. Guess I should have added a smiley...

I love Honda, and I have spent a lot of time recently arguing with people who really do think in the way that I described in that post. Their logic is ludicrous when it's stated plainly...

 

[addyguy]

I don't think 0W-10 is going to become a popular commercial grade aytime soon. At that thin of a base oil, you have to start pumping up the add levels to protect the engine - wee see that in the 0W-10 that ARE available.

It is probably cheaper to go with a thicker base oil (in this case, a 20-weight) and less adds than a thinner oil with more adds.

A second consideration is environmental regulation - with more adds needed in a 10-weight oil, can they stay within SN/GF-5 requirements? Probably trickier and more work than it's worth.

 

[sangyup81]

it took time for 5w20 and 0w20 to take off so don't expect to see 0w10 on shelves right away

 

[Winston]

Isnt it the additives that do most of the protection for the engine anyway?

Also, 0, 10, 20, 40 etc. Those are all just arbitrary numbers. How fast the oil pours out of the bottle is just as useless of an indicator of how "thick" an oil should be.

If it protects the engine, who cares what the viscosity is? Or more specifically, what the number on the bottle is?

BTW, I ran 5W20 in my 1995 mitsu 3L V6 pulling a trailer, up to tahoe , on a 105F degree day. Awesome UOA.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Winston
Isnt it the additives that do most of the protection for the engine anyway?

Sorta kinda. Esters, for example, do a great job on their own in a lot of ways. They can be base stocks, or they can be additives. Or they can be present in quantities that make either label inappropriate.

The point, which is sort of a modification of what you said, is that the whole formulation is what counts, not any one particular part or measure.


Originally Posted By: Winston
If it protects the engine, who cares what the viscosity is? Or more specifically, what the number on the bottle is?

Bingo.

 

[buster]

Interesting. If we do ever see 0w10, I'm confident that the required testing will have been performed by Honda Engineers.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Winston
If it protects the engine, who cares what the viscosity is? Or more specifically, what the number on the bottle is?


^^^ This!

 

[mechtech2]

I remember when HOnda first proposed 5-20 oils.
We read about this in the shop and immediately condemned and disparaged them.
"That stuff is like water!", "Engines won't last long.", etc..
Time sure changed things -it didn't turn out that way.

In it's place, the 0-10 may be quite good, and probably will be sturdy.

Nascar cars often qualify with a 5 oil, so it's not unbelievable that a 10 could work with normal street cars.