HONDA ATF-Z1

[CharBaby]

I never thought that it was Honda ATF Z1 that was the issue with Honda's as it's their auto trannys that die an early death(and not ever single one).

Since Honda started building larger, heavier vehicles with V6's, their trannys were under developed. At one time, Honda only built 4 cyl car mostly with manual trannys. Then more and more were comming with auto tranny's. Now, V6's and auto trannys w/AWD.

Honda just needs to focus more attention on their auto trannys(and other things too) so that they become the reliable vehicles that we always bought Honda's for.

Larger heavier vehicles, V6's, AWD, Luxury Division(Acura). They're not the "little engine that could" any longer. They're a major contendor in the market and they have issues just like any other mfg.

It's not just the 4 cyl Civic, Accord & Perlude any longer. I remember when that's all they had!

 

[pbm]

I never thought that it was Honda ATF Z1 that was the issue with Honda's as it's their auto trannys that die an early death(and not every single one).



You're right that Honda A/Ts are the problem but Z-1 was nothing special either. There were better fluids available for less money (like Maxlife).
If I still had my Accord I'd use Redline D4 which is far, far better than Z-1 and not much more expensive.

 

[FZ1]

Better fluids? That's not the issue. The issue is,the Honda fluids are spec'd,by Honda,for their AT. That's the reason I use Honda only ATF.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Better fluids? That's not the issue. The issue is,the Honda fluids are spec'd,by Honda,for their AT. That's the reason I use Honda only ATF.



I would imagine that HMC would tell customers to use HMC fluids. (They make a lot of money at $8 to $9 a quart).
I can't see them saying..... "use Maxlife, Castrol Import, Pennzoil MV, Amalie etc... and save yourself some money while using a better fluid"....

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: pbm

I never thought that it was Honda ATF Z1 that was the issue with Honda's as it's their auto trannys that die an early death(and not every single one).



You're right that Honda A/Ts are the problem but Z-1 was nothing special either. There were better fluids available for less money (like Maxlife).
If I still had my Accord I'd use Redline D4 which is far, far better than Z-1 and not much more expensive.



Several years ago, just prior to discovering BITOG, I was on another web site that is no longer in existance. Two guys were discussing a Mecury Grand Marquis and the shudder in the tranny. One guy suggested trying Honda Genuine ATF as compared to Dexron III/Mercon. The owner of the Grand Marquis did try the Honda Genuine ATF and the shudder went away. I don't remember all of the details such as...If the whole system was flushed or if it was just a pan drop and a TC drain.

I think that Honda Genuine(pre Z-1) was once a pretty good ATF and maybe better than many others ATF's but, with all of the complexities with auto trannys today, Honda need to improve more than just their ATF.

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted By: pbm

I never thought that it was Honda ATF Z1 that was the issue with Honda's as it's their auto trannys that die an early death(and not every single one).



You're right that Honda A/Ts are the problem but Z-1 was nothing special either. There were better fluids available for less money (like Maxlife).
If I still had my Accord I'd use Redline D4 which is far, far better than Z-1 and not much more expensive.


What makes maxlife better then Z1? And what makes Redline FAR better?

 

[Jim Allen]

Some Things to Ponder:

Honda ATF is not particularly "special" (especially at the price) but the formulation is different because Honda trannies operate differently than most automatics. If you compare VOAs (which you can find with a search here on BITOG) of Z1 and "regular old" ATF, you will see differences.

I suspect Maxlife and some of other stuff is just fine. Is it "better" than Z1? How do you make that judgement? Subjectively, some might say the tranny shifts better but I don't give high marks to that on it's own. Any tranny might shift better when you dump out worn out fluid and install new. Plus, subjective commentary from untrained people is always suspect. No insult intended to anyone but many people "feel" their way through these things without much objectivity and see pretty much what they want to. People use Maxlife and other things and say they're fine. Are they really? They "work" but who knows about long term... and you aren't going to know until a long way down the road.

There is some measure of protection when you see a "suitable for" qualification on the label. In theory, that means there's been some peer review of the application but is it best your your tranny? If you ask the experts, they will say no. We have one here. Look up the posts from Whitewolf, who is a tranny engineer and judge for yourself. He posts infrequently these days, but his past comments are useful in helping to form an educated opinion.

One hopeful hint in all this is that the new DW1 fluid (Z1 replacement) looks (to me) more like regular synthetic ATF than Z1 does and Honda says it backwards compatible. To me that opens the door a little wider in favor of a choice like Maxlife. For myself, I have a fair bit more study to do before making the choice. I have about 18 month and 15K miles to do it before the next fluid exchange is due.

 

[FZ1]

I've got 12 months to go before my next ATF drain and fill. I figure all the Z1 will be gone from dealer bulk by then. I'm thinking about lettin' the dealer do a complete change using the DW1. I'll let you guys know how it works out.

 

[Boss302fan]

Z1 is fine if you change it every 15K... I honestly think it is ridiculous to have to change any atf fluid that often. Either Honda trannys suck or the fluid does. Your choice people...

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Z1 is fine if you change it every 15K... I honestly think it is ridiculous to have to change any atf fluid that often. Either Honda trannys suck or the fluid does. Your choice people...


Are you talking about a drain and refill or a complete change?

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Z1 is fine if you change it every 15K... I honestly think it is ridiculous to have to change any atf fluid that often. Either Honda trannys suck or the fluid does. Your choice people...


Where did you get the 15k mile lifespan?

 

[Jim Allen]

Z1 turns darkish in about 15K and most people interpret dark as bad. When tested, it isn't as bad as it looks. Honda transmissions are reputed to run hot as well. I say "reputed" just because they are one car I've owned that I never hooked up a trans temp gauge. If they are hot runners, that would increase the oxidation rate of the oil.

In my own '00 Honda V6, the oil tested good at 30K. It was dark. I changed it. I've been overly obsessive about fluid changes on the car because of the notorious rep they have for tranny problems. I added an inline filter which should help with fluid life. Will test in a few thousand again to see when I do a full fluid change.

 

[FZ1]

Same approach on my 02 V6 auto with 113,000. I run M1 EP 5-20 and change it every 6 months at about 4500 miles. I let the dealer do a simple 1 step drain and fill every 2 years. There have been problems with some of these transmissions so I'm trying to minimize operating temps in my engine compartment/transmission. Fresh fluids perform better.

 

[pbm]

Why do I think Maxlife is better than Z-1?
Maxlife is a full synthetic which is (rather was) available for under $4 a quart at Walmart and many Honda owners used it with no problems.
Z-1 is not synthetic and cost approx. $8 a quart.
Many Honda A/Ts went out despite frequent fluid changes regardless of fluid used. This tells me that Honda made many inferior trannies.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Why do I think Maxlife is better than Z-1?
Maxlife is a full synthetic which is (rather was) available for under $4 a quart at Walmart and many Honda owners used it with no problems.
Z-1 is not synthetic and cost approx. $8 a quart.
Many Honda A/Ts went out despite frequent fluid changes regardless of fluid used. This tells me that Honda made many inferior trannies.


When comparing the two oils, the base oil isn't the issue, it's the difference in additive packages and viscosity that I want to highlight as a concern. With regards to ATs, the additives come before the base oil because they contain the amount and type of FMs the OE intended for proper operation

As to the cost, it's pretty obscene to pay so much for Z1 given it's actual composition... though there are cheaper places to get it.

The record of failures in Honda AT stands for itself, or falls on it's face, however you want to look at it.

 

[Boss302fan]

Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Z1 is fine if you change it every 15K... I honestly think it is ridiculous to have to change any atf fluid that often. Either Honda trannys suck or the fluid does. Your choice people...


Where did you get the 15k mile lifespan?


I have owned numerous Hondas through the years and because this is what I did with my 03 Acura MDX and the original tranny lasted till 130K miles(It did finally fail). MANY MDX's had failed trannys after just 50K miles. The tranny's in the MDX were poorly engineered and the fluid is known to be not much better.

 

[sciphi]

We've used Maxlife for 12k miles now with only positive things to say about it. Shifts are smoother and faster than with Z1, it doesn't oxidize as rapidly, and it's more consistent in performance no matter the temperature.

The factory fill got drained/filled with more Z1 at 18k miles. That was dark and nasty-looking. The shifting had gone from smooth to harsh. At 27k miles the shifting was harsh again, so it got drained/filled with Maxlife. Again the fluid coming out was dark and nasty. At the most recent change at 39k miles the 50% Maxlife/50% Z1 mix was brown-tinged red, and the shifting had remained consistent throughout the drain interval. More Maxlife was added. Shifting is the same as it was before.

Time will tell. So far we like this Z1 alternative.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: sciphi

Time will tell. So far we like this Z1 alternative.


I'm due for another Maxlife ATF drain/fill on our 2008 Odyssey. I did one at ~18Kmi and I'm at 39500 now.

FWIW, My 2008 Hyundai Santa Fe AWD is at 65Kmi on Maxlife ATF. I've done 3 drain/fill cycles on it since ~39Kmi.

Joel

 

[mattd]

I'm using a mix of redline D4 and redline type F ATF at a 66/33 percent ratio.

I notice the biggest differences cold shifting, and on down shifts. Much smoother cold, and faster, smoother downshifts. Upshifts are slightly firmer and seems to be more smooth overall. Torque converter lockup/unlock is also smoother.

I plan on doing 1 drain and fill every 3rd oil change or around 20k miles as well as the filter at the time of fluid change (V6 A/T's DO have a serviceable filter despite what you have been told!) We shall see.

 

[MonumentOiler]

Honda no longer sells Z1. It's been 100% replaced with "Fully Synthetic" and 100% back compatible DW-1.


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