Honda 0W-20 Semi-Syn Break-in, Odyssey 4,633 Miles

[GarrettRay]

Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
Ok... so... I'm lost.

There was a drain and fill on this vehicle? Right?

So what was put in?
What was used as the "make up oil"?

And how many miles into this was this drain and fill done?

I was kind of interested in seeing the makeup of what Honda used from the factory, but I will be satisfied if I can figure out a VOA to look at for the "Make up oil" used in this example.

I'm curious.

Thanks.


Well Dave, at the risk of having the 'You're Wrong Mafia' shoot my head off again, I'll try to answer your question:

The van needed no make-up oil at all during the first 4,633 miles of breaking in. The oil consistently stayed at the full mark exactly. At said miles, I drained the oil in it's entirety and measured out 4.5 quarts, just like the manual states as the quantity held. For the Know-It-All police, NO.... I didn't use a lab beaker! I used a gallon jug with graduation marks on it, and poured the used oil in from a freshly drained rectangular Rubbermaid pan, of which I also used to collect the oil from the filter too. I poured 4 quarts back in, ran the engine for about a minute, shut it off, and then slowly topped off until it hit the full mark exactly. When done, I had put in exactly 4.5 quarts back into the engine. I put Honda Semi-Syn Blend 0W-20 back into it.

So I guess I can say that the van used no oil for the first 4,633 miles. Does this answer what you are asking?

 

[Cardiobuck]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Please read:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/


Done, and thanks. So the author takes issue with what he calls "simple" UOA AKA Blackstone, but gives no information regarding complex UOAs the results of which could be used for meaningful wear data? I'm only assuming there are complex tests that show this because his confident "simple" reference necessitates a corollary.
If I can find a point of aggreement its the idea of standing at a distance and looking for trends over time with UOA at fixed intervals. I can see that TBN would be of more use than wear metal levels. I can also see the value to looking for signs of coolant leaks, and fuel content. What I cannot see is telling people we don't use these tests for examining wear metals.

So lets suppose my last TBN was 0.5: I would think it logical to then examine the report for any indication that this actually had an effect on engine wear. At some point we should have higher wear, and we should be able to pick it up in the sample. I won't be able to prove this though since I have no intention of letting my TBN get that low.

Obviously I have a lot to learn. For instance today I learned there are two Clevy's. One says we don't use UOAs for determining wear. The other says this, "Obviously these longer oil runs aren't doing his engine any harm as the wear metals are below universal averages(not that that in itself means much) and the oil wasn't wiped out yet,so why change it at 5000 miles.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Cardiobuck
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Please read:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/


Done, and thanks. So the author takes issue with what he calls "simple" UOA AKA Blackstone, but gives no information regarding complex UOAs the results of which could be used for meaningful wear data? I'm only assuming there are complex tests that show this because his confident "simple" reference necessitates a corollary.


No, the point is that oil analysis is not a substitute for an actual tear-down with measurements. A more expensive UOA, one that includes particle counts, will give you a better picture, but cannot tell you definitively how an engine is wearing.

Quote:
If I can find a point of aggreement its the idea of standing at a distance and looking for trends over time with UOA at fixed intervals. I can see that TBN would be of more use than wear metal levels. I can also see the value to looking for signs of coolant leaks, and fuel content. What I cannot see is telling people we don't use these tests for examining wear metals.

So lets suppose my last TBN was 0.5: I would think it logical to then examine the report for any indication that this actually had an effect on engine wear. At some point we should have higher wear, and we should be able to pick it up in the sample. I won't be able to prove this though since I have no intention of letting my TBN get that low.

Obviously I have a lot to learn. For instance today I learned there are two Clevy's. One says we don't use UOAs for determining wear. The other says this, "Obviously these longer oil runs aren't doing his engine any harm as the wear metals are below universal averages(not that that in itself means much) and the oil wasn't wiped out yet,so why change it at 5000 miles.


The point is that UOA's sample a very narrow range of particle sizes, so if you have excessive wear occurring it quite possible for the particles to be too large to be detected by a UOA. That's why the author (a man who has probably done more UOA's than everybody on this board combined) made it a point to mention the purpose of them: to monitor engine oil health and contamination levels.

This is also why, when he ran extensive fleet testing for XOM, that he did random tear-downs to measure ACTUAL wear. This was with a condemnation point of 150ppm for iron BTW, and various other limits for the other contaminants. At 1.2 million Km (the tear-down he posted on here), using that limit, wear was indiscernible and the parts were still spec'd "as new" in terms of measurements. That was a collection of rod bearing, piston and liner/bore measurements.

This gentleman (the author) is a recognized authority in his field, having authored the official truck maintenance and lubrication manual for Australia (I have a copy) and has done extensive lubrication field testing for a long list of OEM's such as Mercedes Benz, Detroit Diesel...etc, and lubrication manufacturers such as BP and XOM.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: GarrettRay
This website (I thought) is for sharing information collected from oil samples. I did not realized when I signed up here that it was a battle ground for opinionated people. I will not be posting anymore UOAs here, I can definitely assure everyone of that. Getting pummeled in a forum thread is not my idea of learning something.

To be blunt, your only issue is with opinions that run contrary to yours. Someone tells you what makeup oil is, and another mentions why that's important, and they're being snarky. Someone tells you that Honda recommends leaving the FF in for longer than you did, they're shoving their opinions down your throat. Someone tells you that a factory fill is expected to have very high levels of contaminants and raise several alarm bells in a UOA, and they're being a know it all. Someone says that Honda does have reliable vehicles and does have an interest in having happy customers with long lasting vehicles, they're being naive.

But, if someone gave you a high five for your OCI and told you that makeup oil was irrelevant, you'd be happy. I've always been of the school of doing an early FF change. Your change was probably later than what I would have done, particularly before reading on this site. (I suppose me wanting to have changed the FF earlier than you did is a problem, too, right?) However, I'm extremely grateful that there are people on this site with other opinions, different experiences and knowledge, and different resources than me. That's how we learn.

When you put your actions out for public comment, you're going to get comments you don't like. If you're set in your ways, then there's no point in bringing the matter to a public forum, is there? The way to learn from a UOA is to discuss them. It's clear you don't really wish to discuss them. If you aren't going to be posting any future UOAs, as you indicate, that's probably a good thing.

It's a good thing I didn't tell you that UOAs on factory fills, outside of a few exceptions, are less than useless. Oops, I guess I just did.

 

[Cardiobuck]

I have no doubt regarding the credentials of Doug Hillary. I have no doubt he knows so much more about this than me that continued argument is funny, at best.

I never said any UOA could or should be used in an attempt to substitute for an actual tear-down. I simply do not need the level of information a tear-down would supply about a common vehicle I use to get me to work. It's not as though my life depends on the engine lasting 500,000 miles

Thanks for the info about particle size though, I can appreciate that.

Sometimes people around here remind me of those guys at the Hi-Fi audio store who keep trying to sell thousand dollar audio-video cables with their "oxygen free" copper talk and such. My point is there is always more detail one can delve into. There is a difference between correct and relevant.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Cardiobuck
I never said any UOA could or should be used in an attempt to substitute for an actual tear-down. I simply do not need the level of information a tear-down would supply about a common vehicle I use to get me to work. It's not as though my life depends on the engine lasting 500,000 miles

The real issue is that one needs to trend. That's the only way to tell when one or more numbers may be abnormal. One cannot say that oil 1 is better than oil 2 based off of the metals in a UOA. But, if something is cruising along at 1 or 2 ppm for 50,000 miles and then jumps to over 100 ppm, there's an anomaly. The metal numbers with no context aren't terribly useful, and condemnation levels are usually set very high.

In a single UOA, the only really valuable things might be TBN, viscosity, and fuel dilution, and possible traces of coolant intrusion. But one cannot divine through two UOAs, one for brand A and one for brand B, that brand B wears half as much as brand A.

 

[GarrettRay]

I have been reading a lot of other threads as well, and all I can say is this: I had no idea when I signed up here that so many people enjoyed, no, crave picking on and arguing with each other. It's as if most of you guys find pure ecstasy in finding fault with each other's posts, information, spelling, grammar, and a whole host of other unbelievably irrelevant garbage. Yes, I have seen ALL OF THIS in posts located in a whole host of topical areas. Why?? Never mind....I don't want to know. This is my last post, thank God, because I am sick and tired of the B.S. that goes on here.

Happy arguing, fighting, defending, and insulting.... Many of you are good at it.

Auf Wiedersehen

 

[HTSS_TR]

Nobody know what in your head, what you really mean in your OP. Some just point out that "Make Up Oil Added " is not an oil change and they are correct.

Honda, Toyota and other Japanese companies don't thing about revenue/profit of this quarter or next quarter, they think and plan for 5-10 years. They know that building reputation take very long time and it can be destroyed in few months. Their vehicles are very reliable by any study/poll, that why their used vehicles are selling at high percentage of original MSRP.

Looks to me that anyone doesn't agree with you about anything then that person to you is wrong, looking for a fight ...

I don't agree with most of your post, but I'm not looking to start a fight with you. If you don't post here anymore that will be good for all of us.

Thanks and have a good time in other forum(s).

 

[Vikas]

Quote:
No problems with the vehicle so far at 25K.
How did the so called "bullies" miss this one?

Really? You have no problems in the first 25K miles of your new vehicle, so your methods must be correct?

 

[Indydriver]

Well, I was going to make a comment but, never mind.

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Deliberately side-stepping many of the posts in this thread, I purchased a '14 Odyssey with 2 miles on the odometer in November and sucked out a sample at just under 3000 miles this week and sent it in to ALS just for curiosity. The OP's UOA probably gives me something to compare this to. Judging by the OLM, I don't expect that the vehicle will tell me it is time to change the oil until 9000-10000 miles so perhaps I'll pull a sample around 6000 miles and another when I change it just to see if things progress in a linear fashion or if the bulk of what shows up on the kind of UOA I'm doing becomes suspended in the oil early on. Not sure yet when I will change the oil but I'm probably going to weigh my decision mostly on viscosity, insoul, fuel/flashpoint and go from there.

Honda's VCM engines have had issues in the past and I want to keep an eye on things engine-wise but my primary mechanical concern with the plan on keeping this vehicle for the long-haul is the transmission. Aside from the early VCM engines that had problems and required rebuild or replacement I don't personally know of anyone who's had a serious issue with the J35 engine but I know of plenty who have had issues with the 4 and 5 speed transmissions mated to the J35 on the Odyssey.

 

[kjbock]

Originally Posted By: OrdnanceMarine
Deliberately side-stepping many of the posts in this thread, I purchased a '14 Odyssey with 2 miles on the odometer in November and sucked out a sample at just under 3000 miles this week and sent it in to ALS just for curiosity. The OP's UOA probably gives me something to compare this to. Judging by the OLM, I don't expect that the vehicle will tell me it is time to change the oil until 9000-10000 miles so perhaps I'll pull a sample around 6000 miles and another when I change it just to see if things progress in a linear fashion or if the bulk of what shows up on the kind of UOA I'm doing becomes suspended in the oil early on. Not sure yet when I will change the oil but I'm probably going to weigh my decision mostly on viscosity, insoul, fuel/flashpoint and go from there.

Honda's VCM engines have had issues in the past and I want to keep an eye on things engine-wise but my primary mechanical concern with the plan on keeping this vehicle for the long-haul is the transmission. Aside from the early VCM engines that had problems and required rebuild or replacement I don't personally know of anyone who's had a serious issue with the J35 engine but I know of plenty who have had issues with the 4 and 5 speed transmissions mated to the J35 on the Odyssey.


I think your model actually has the new 6-speed auto, instead of the 5-speed. Not sure what kind of issues, if any, people are having with the new tranny.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
No problems with the vehicle so far at 25K.
How did the so called "bullies" miss this one?

Really? You have no problems in the first 25K miles of your new vehicle, so your methods must be correct?



Ha
Awesome.

 

[hattaresguy]

Back to the OP since I don't care to read 4 pages. I don't know why people get UOA on fresh motors, of course the numbers are going to be [censored]. Without Honda engineering data for that motor they are also meaningless.

Now that you started keep doing it, or stop and pick it up again around 25k miles when the break in stuff will be out and you can start getting some trends.

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted By: kjbock

I think your model actually has the new 6-speed auto, instead of the 5-speed. Not sure what kind of issues, if any, people are having with the new tranny.


Indeed it is the newer design 6-speed (was only in Touring+ models from '11-'13 but became standard on all trims for '14) but my guess is that it isn't something revolutionary and may be prone to some of the same issues.

Got my UOA for my Odyssey with 3000 miles back today. Main surprise is the fairly low vis and TBN of just over 3.