home electrical - GFCI problem

[greenjp]

Got a problem with a GFCI outlet in my garage, trips semi-regularly without apparent reason. This wouldn't be a big problem except that we have a freezer plugged into it and just lost a bunch of food - we were away for 5 days and discovered it when we got home.

This plug is out in my detached garage. The circuit comes in from the house, through a kill switch, to the GFCI outlet, then over to a 3 switch box that controls interior and exterior lighting. One more wire goes up to the garage door opener.

I only use the outlet for the freezer and occassionaly with a battery charger or power tool. Plugging things into it, or using the lights or garage door opener, doesn't seem to have any correlation to the GFCI tripping out.

My initial thought is just to replace the outlet with a standard non-GFCI outlet. Just want to be sure I won't be trading one problem for another. Any thoughts? Thanks!

jeff

 

[synthetic_crazy]

Are you overloading the outlet? We had both a deep freeze and a refrigerator plugged into one outlet and if both clicked on at the same time it would trip. We ended up having an electrician run a new plug on a separate circuit and it fixed the problem. You might want to have an electrician check yours out...a fire isn't worth waiting!

 

[Colt45ws]

Dont remove the GFCI. If anything, replace it with another GFCI. They seem to go bad more often than normal breakers or anything. Ive replaced two in this house.
But, I would have the fridge checked out. If its the only thing normally on that circuit then something may be wrong with it.

 

[The_Jeff]

By code you don't usually need a GFCI if the outlet is blocked by something heavy and dedicated... like a freezer.

But it protects stuff downstream, so you need to put one in on the next outlet.

And yeah they get flaky, so get a new one. If you include the garage door opener in the protected circuit, you'll know something's wrong faster.

 

[javacontour]

Motor circuits like those on a fridge can cause a GFCI to trip. I'd replace the GFCI outlet with a dedicated regular outlet for the fridge and then return the GFCI outlet when you go to sell the home.

It's not code, so understand that. If you look in your kitchen, the outlet dedicated for the fridge is NOT a GFCI, because that type of load can trip the protection of such an outlet. That should be a big clue regarding GFCI and the fridge.

 

[JHZR2]

Did this just start happening, while the freezer has has been out there for 20, or is the freezer new, and this just started happening.

There cana be severe surges and I suppose reactive power sent back through one of the legs that would cause an imbalance and cause it to trip... Understanding how much of this is things that you affected recently can help a lot.

 

[greenjp]

4 great replies in 20 minutes! Thanks!

How's this for a fix - run a new, second wire from the kill switch to a new, dedicated single outlet for the fridge. Leave the existing GFCI outlet for battery charging & tools and whatnot. That way I'd have the fridge set up and still be up to code for the rest?

jeff

 

[jstutz]

As others said above, just replace the GFCI with another GFCI. If the new one keeps popping, then seek further advice. I have had several over the years that have went bad with nothing plugged into them. Im not sure how much you know about this stuff but remember that the GFCI is not a circuit breaker and it trips based on a voltage differential, which in an ideal world should not happen unless there is a problem. There a nice safety device and for the cost, there worth it. The flip side is like javacontour said, some motors can cause these to trip when they cut on. Most will not however. I have my deep freeze and another fridge on GFCIs and in 5 years they have not popped one time. The nice thing about them is if you have rodents chewing on wires in the house or starting to short for what ever reason, these will trip instead of it burning your house down. It maybe warning you of an issue, thats why i say replace it with a new one and see how it goes.

 

[greenjp]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Did this just start happening, while the freezer has has been out there for 20, or is the freezer new, and this just started happening.

We've been in the house for about 2.5 years, inherited the freezer from the previous owners. We've only been using it for the last 10 months or so. The freezer appears to be fairly old, I'd guess at least 10 if not 15 years. The GFCI has been tripping from time to time ever since we started using it. Just haven't bothered with a fix because until now I've always caught it quickly.

jeff

 

[Rob_Roy]

GFCI outlets can do funny things...my dad has one that seems to trip when it is really humid out, with nothing plugged into it. I would probably just install a standard outlet, but you could also install a standard outlet with a GFCI breaker in the panel.

 

[scurvy]

Put a Kill-A-Watt meter on the freezer and log the maximum current draw over a few days. You may be surprised at how much a compressor starting up draws. The GFCI outlet itself could be flaky. Try replacing it to see if that helps eliminate the problem.

 

[hate2work]

If it's the starting voltage spike of the freezer motor that's tripping the GFCI then you'll have to replace it with a regular outlet. Or get a newer freezer that doesn't have the spike. MAKE SURE there isn't another problem making it trip, maybe a corroded wire or a rat has chewed on the wire. GFCIs are not designed for use with large appliances, they are designed to be used with hand held devices where a diff in voltage could mean that you became the ground by allowing the current to go outside the normal voltage path.

You might want to install an LED "always on" indicator light so that you could just glance out and see if the power was still on for your freezer. They have them built into extension cords if you pay for that feature, not sure of your situation how you could make it work for you.

 

[Kestas]

I thought GFCI was mainly to protect individuals from shock and chiefly used for "wet" areas, such as sinks, tubs, and outdoor use where hand-held appliances can shock the individual.

I don't think a GFCI is appropriate for a freezer. Otherwise ALL outlets should be GFCI.

 

[The_Jeff]

They started putting GFCIs in garages because people were running extention cords out to christmas lights and electric weed whackers that were whacking their own cords.

NEC:
210-8(A) Dwelling units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, and 20- ampere recepticles installed in locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages and accessory buildings that have a floor at or below grade not intended as habitable rooms and limited to starage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use.
Exception No.1 to (2): Recepticles that are not readily accessable
Exception No.2 to (2): A single recepticle or a duplex recepticle for two appliances located within a dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord and plug connected.

 

[Stu_Rock]

Nice work on getting the NEC text.

A freezer or refrigerator should not be plugged into a GFCI. In some locations, inspectors would even red flag you for doing that.

If possible, a good thing to do would be to put in a non-GFCI single receptacle for the freezer and a duplex GFCI receptacle for regular use. If this is in a 2-gang box or 4 inch box, this would be no problem.

 

[greenjp]

Excellent info, as usual I am impressed with the knowledge of the folks on here.

So it sounds like the plan I proposed above would be appropriate and up to code. Also should take a close look at the existing cables to make sure they are in good shape.

jeff

 

[TallPaul]

I once had an electrician tell me not to have a fridge/freezer on a GFCI as if it trips you can lose your food. That said, you need to see if the freezer is the problem. I would try plugging the freezer into a different circuit and see if the GFCI still trips. If you can determine the freezer is okay, I would leave it off the GFCI.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: greenjp
4 great replies in 20 minutes! Thanks!

How's this for a fix - run a new, second wire from the kill switch to a new, dedicated single outlet for the fridge. Leave the existing GFCI outlet for battery charging & tools and whatnot. That way I'd have the fridge set up and still be up to code for the rest?

jeff


That would probably work. To keep it code, the fridge outlet would have to be inaccessible and possibly a single outlet. I had one like this that was simply hidden. So the inspector could see the GFCI outlet in my garage, but couldn't see the hidden outlet.

I don't think garage door outlets are GFCI either, but check the code to be sure what you want to do meets code requirements.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Motor circuits like those on a fridge can cause a GFCI to trip.


At my rental property, the garbage disposal is wired to a GFCI due to the way the kitchen was wired and the fact that the GFCI had to be added later.

The GFCI has never, ever tripped due to the garbage disposal being turned on.

However, the GFCI at my rental property is fairly new--it was installed in 2003, and I am sure that the GFCIs sold in 2003 are a lot better than the ones sold in 1993.

I had some at my house that would trip for no apparent reason, I replaced them with new ones and haven't had a problem since.

 

[SuperDave456]

When was the house built?

My house was built in 1978. They shared rooms when wiring, both bathrooms a closet and lighting in 1 guest bedroom are on the same circuit, and also different circuits share grounds.

I only learned this when I had my Circuit Panel replaced recently. I had Arc Fault Circuit Breakers put in and when you tried to turn on lights that shared a ground they would flip.
Right now those lights have electrical tape over their switches so that we don't accidentally hit them and end up in the dark.

I plan on rewiring that circuit, but only when it gets cooler outside. It is 100 degrees on the back patio, and probably 150-180 in the attic. I can wait till it is 40 degrees and it will be comfy up there.

Also, I tried to put in a new 20amp GFCI protected outlet in the Master Bath. But it shares a circuit with the hallway which has a 3 way switch and it pops every time you flip it. So it went back to the way it was.

Some of these older homes you will end up totally rewiring if you want them up to code.

BTW, if I have little girls I plan on dropping dedicated 120 circuits into the bathrooms so that their hair dryers wont trip the circuits and leave them in the dark.